Pre Trib. Rapture Moment 16: What about The Judgment Seat of Christ?
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Dear Brother in Christ,
I was a Pre Tribber for the first 40 years or so of my life. My dad was a Baptist minister for 18 of those years. So, I just accepted what I was taught. The problem was I started studying the Bible and the idea of the Pre-Trib Rapture and there is NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE of it in the Bible. NONE.
To answer your question, the Judgment seat of Christ happens on the same day as the the "last day" AKA the "Day of the Lord." Let's see what the Bible actually teaches.
John 12
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
So clearly, the unjust are judged on the last day which is the same day when the Lord comes. Now turn to John 6.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So the clear reading of the Bible is that there is only ONE second coming of the Lord, not two. The Lord judges and catches up His faithful on the last day.
Perhaps the most powerful passage comes from Paul in 2 Thes 2. If Jesus comes before the Tribulation, why the apostasy that Paul teaches us? This event would be so glorious and visible to the world and the world would all believe as they do when he comes after the Tribulation. Why would there be a falling away before the Anti-Christ is reveal is Christ just took his Church? Its the fact that the church is still here is what causes the Apostasy. That's what makes this false doctrine so dangerous. Christ speaks in great length and cautions not to be fooled by false teachings in the end days.
[h=3]The Great Apostasy[/h]2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
To support a Pre Trib Rapture several key things are needed.
1. Two separate COMINGS of the LORD, one before the Tribulation, one after.
2. Clear evidence that the believers on the earth during the Tribulation are new converts
3. A distinct passage that teaches that the Lord comes BEFORE the Tribulation
4. A separate plan for the Church and His chosen people of Israel.
None of the above are found anywhere in the Bible.
The idea of a Pre tribulation rapture is a man's idea (John Darby - 1830), it is not of God, and not taught in the scriptures. I don't want to offend you dear brother, but Satan is very deceitful, his lies sound so good but there is a purpose behind them. In this case I see 4 clear objectives:
1. Cause fighting and dissension in the church.
2. Cause weak Christians to fall when the Tribulation starts and there is no rapture. "falling away 2 Thes 1-3".
3. To cause Christians not to "watch" or prepare for going through the tribulation.
4. To cause Christians to turn against Christians to turn them in even to death.
All of this will make the beast and the Anti-Christ all that more easy and effective. Most Christians are weak and don't study the Bible. They will be easily swayed by Satan when told that he is the messiah.
Any time a new idea comes along, we need to really test the theory. The classical view has always been until 1830 that there is one second coming and it happens at the Last Day. The 1800s were a period of great deception. Evolution started then and many new denominations and religions. The Bible is the true source of God's word and it matters not what is popularly taught by man. Christ himself never mentioned HIS return to "rapture" the saints BEFORE the Tribulation when he was specifically asked by his disciples. Pre tribbers argue that the Lord was talking to the Jews. But these Jews were his believing disciples, not unbelieving Jews. Jesus would have told them not to worry if there was a Pre trib rapture. But instead he tells them they will suffer tribulation, that nations will hate them and in fact 11 of the 12 were put to death.
My eyes were opened to this huge lie and I pray that you open your mind, heart and eyes and turn to the actual Word of God for the truth because it is clearly told.
I was a Pre Tribber for the first 40 years or so of my life. My dad was a Baptist minister for 18 of those years. So, I just accepted what I was taught. The problem was I started studying the Bible and the idea of the Pre-Trib Rapture and there is NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE of it in the Bible. NONE.
To answer your question, the Judgment seat of Christ happens on the same day as the the "last day" AKA the "Day of the Lord." Let's see what the Bible actually teaches.
John 12
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
So clearly, the unjust are judged on the last day which is the same day when the Lord comes. Now turn to John 6.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So the clear reading of the Bible is that there is only ONE second coming of the Lord, not two. The Lord judges and catches up His faithful on the last day.
Perhaps the most powerful passage comes from Paul in 2 Thes 2. If Jesus comes before the Tribulation, why the apostasy that Paul teaches us? This event would be so glorious and visible to the world and the world would all believe as they do when he comes after the Tribulation. Why would there be a falling away before the Anti-Christ is reveal is Christ just took his Church? Its the fact that the church is still here is what causes the Apostasy. That's what makes this false doctrine so dangerous. Christ speaks in great length and cautions not to be fooled by false teachings in the end days.
[h=3]The Great Apostasy[/h]2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
To support a Pre Trib Rapture several key things are needed.
1. Two separate COMINGS of the LORD, one before the Tribulation, one after.
2. Clear evidence that the believers on the earth during the Tribulation are new converts
3. A distinct passage that teaches that the Lord comes BEFORE the Tribulation
4. A separate plan for the Church and His chosen people of Israel.
None of the above are found anywhere in the Bible.
The idea of a Pre tribulation rapture is a man's idea (John Darby - 1830), it is not of God, and not taught in the scriptures. I don't want to offend you dear brother, but Satan is very deceitful, his lies sound so good but there is a purpose behind them. In this case I see 4 clear objectives:
1. Cause fighting and dissension in the church.
2. Cause weak Christians to fall when the Tribulation starts and there is no rapture. "falling away 2 Thes 1-3".
3. To cause Christians not to "watch" or prepare for going through the tribulation.
4. To cause Christians to turn against Christians to turn them in even to death.
All of this will make the beast and the Anti-Christ all that more easy and effective. Most Christians are weak and don't study the Bible. They will be easily swayed by Satan when told that he is the messiah.
Any time a new idea comes along, we need to really test the theory. The classical view has always been until 1830 that there is one second coming and it happens at the Last Day. The 1800s were a period of great deception. Evolution started then and many new denominations and religions. The Bible is the true source of God's word and it matters not what is popularly taught by man. Christ himself never mentioned HIS return to "rapture" the saints BEFORE the Tribulation when he was specifically asked by his disciples. Pre tribbers argue that the Lord was talking to the Jews. But these Jews were his believing disciples, not unbelieving Jews. Jesus would have told them not to worry if there was a Pre trib rapture. But instead he tells them they will suffer tribulation, that nations will hate them and in fact 11 of the 12 were put to death.
My eyes were opened to this huge lie and I pray that you open your mind, heart and eyes and turn to the actual Word of God for the truth because it is clearly told.
Wrong Plain, there is plenty of evidence of a Pre-Trib. Rapture in the Bible. Look up John 10, Revelation 4, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, and Ephesians 1. There is a lot of evidence supporting the Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. Now make sure you are first using the right Bible. If you don't have a King James Bible, then you are going to need to get one. And study it and rightly divide it.
The Judgment Seat of Christ does not happen at the same time as the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and in that day we will be riding behind our Lord on white horses wearing white raiment.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21 (Holy Bible)
So you see plain, the armies which were in Heaven and that followed the Lord Jesus Christ upon white horses are His saints, which is us. The Judgement Seat of Christ would have to be before the Second Coming of Christ Jesus, because at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Judgment of the Nations (Sheep and Goats) will take place in the valley of decision (See Joel 3:12-15). And then following this Judgment will be the 1,000 year Literal Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then following that time period, is the Great White Throne Judgment shortly after the old earth and old heaven is burned with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10-12).
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. - Joel 3:11-16 (Holy Bible)
Plain, I never said there were two Second Comings. There is only one Second Advent. But the Lord will come for His Church at the Rapture which must take place before the time of Jacob's Trouble begins. Because the Body of Christ has to be taken out of the way before the Wicked one is revealed.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. - 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 (Holy Bible)
Plain, you have to rightly divide the word of truth. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for Gentile Christians, but is for Unbelieving Israel. Also, every true Born again Christian has Eternal Security because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 declares that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. So trying to say that Christians will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble does not work at all. Because in the time of Jacob's trouble, only the 144,000 sealed Jews will have Eternal Security. But everyone else in the time of Jacob's trouble will not.
If a person gets saved in the time of Jacob's trouble but then later gives in and takes the mark of the beast, that same person is damned because he took the mark of the Beast. So that is why there is an element of works in the time of Jacob's trouble. While now in the Church Age, there are no works for salvation. Only grace through faith.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:8-13 (Holy Bible)
Well Plain, we are living in the apostasy and falling away right now. Just check out your average modern church and see how most of the pastors of these churches no longer preach against sin, and how they no longer preach on Hell. What we have today is psychology behind the pulpits and it's so sad that it has gotten this bad. So your argument there definitely does not prove anything. Nor is it a valid argument against the Pre-Trib. Rapture.
Well Plain, like I said before. The Lord does come for His Church before the time of Jacob's trouble. The Rapture is what starts the time of Jacob's trouble. The Rapture is where the Lord comes in the clouds and we meet Him in the air (See 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). The Second Coming is where the Lord Jesus Christ actually steps foot on the mount of olives and judges the Nations at His coming. They are two distinct events Plain. That is why the Rapture is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation 19 or Revelation 20.
No it is not. The Pre-Trib. Rapture is clearly taught and supported in the Holy Scriptures. You have to be dispensational and rightly divide the word of truth to fully understand the timing of the Rapture. When I say timing I am not talking about the exact time, or hour, I am talking about the time frame, whether it is before the Tribulation or not. And of course the timing of the Rapture is indeed before the Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble.
Also, in 150A.D. the Shepherd of Hermas preached the Rapture.
In 350A.D. Ephraim the Syrian also taught on the Rapture.
In 400A.D. Jerome also declared a Pre-Rapture.
In 1304 A.D. Dolcino proclaimed and declared the Pre-Trib. Rapture.
So no, the Pre-Trib. Rapture was NOT invented by John Darby in 1830. You are simply wrong there Plain. And you need to reconsider your position. Because right now you are clearly in error with your views.
Plain, Christians will not be going through the tribulation. Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. See 1 Thess. 5:9.
When you teach that Christians will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation, you are basically telling them not to look for Jesus Christ. But rather, you are getting Christians to look for the antichrist and new world order.
The purpose of the time of Jacob's trouble is to bring Israel into correction. It is not for the Gentile believers. It is not for the church. Read Jeremiah 30.
Again Plain, you simply do not understand what you are saying. The Premillennial View was greatly held by the Early Church Fathers. Barnabas(100), Justin Martyr(110-165), Irenaeus(120-202), the Didache (100-160) were all premillennial in their views. Especially in regard to Christ's coming to Earth.
The Judgment Seat of Christ does not happen at the same time as the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and in that day we will be riding behind our Lord on white horses wearing white raiment.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21 (Holy Bible)
So you see plain, the armies which were in Heaven and that followed the Lord Jesus Christ upon white horses are His saints, which is us. The Judgement Seat of Christ would have to be before the Second Coming of Christ Jesus, because at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Judgment of the Nations (Sheep and Goats) will take place in the valley of decision (See Joel 3:12-15). And then following this Judgment will be the 1,000 year Literal Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then following that time period, is the Great White Throne Judgment shortly after the old earth and old heaven is burned with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10-12).
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. - Joel 3:11-16 (Holy Bible)
Plain, I never said there were two Second Comings. There is only one Second Advent. But the Lord will come for His Church at the Rapture which must take place before the time of Jacob's Trouble begins. Because the Body of Christ has to be taken out of the way before the Wicked one is revealed.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. - 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 (Holy Bible)
Plain, you have to rightly divide the word of truth. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for Gentile Christians, but is for Unbelieving Israel. Also, every true Born again Christian has Eternal Security because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 declares that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. So trying to say that Christians will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble does not work at all. Because in the time of Jacob's trouble, only the 144,000 sealed Jews will have Eternal Security. But everyone else in the time of Jacob's trouble will not.
If a person gets saved in the time of Jacob's trouble but then later gives in and takes the mark of the beast, that same person is damned because he took the mark of the Beast. So that is why there is an element of works in the time of Jacob's trouble. While now in the Church Age, there are no works for salvation. Only grace through faith.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:8-13 (Holy Bible)
Well Plain, we are living in the apostasy and falling away right now. Just check out your average modern church and see how most of the pastors of these churches no longer preach against sin, and how they no longer preach on Hell. What we have today is psychology behind the pulpits and it's so sad that it has gotten this bad. So your argument there definitely does not prove anything. Nor is it a valid argument against the Pre-Trib. Rapture.
Well Plain, like I said before. The Lord does come for His Church before the time of Jacob's trouble. The Rapture is what starts the time of Jacob's trouble. The Rapture is where the Lord comes in the clouds and we meet Him in the air (See 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). The Second Coming is where the Lord Jesus Christ actually steps foot on the mount of olives and judges the Nations at His coming. They are two distinct events Plain. That is why the Rapture is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation 19 or Revelation 20.
No it is not. The Pre-Trib. Rapture is clearly taught and supported in the Holy Scriptures. You have to be dispensational and rightly divide the word of truth to fully understand the timing of the Rapture. When I say timing I am not talking about the exact time, or hour, I am talking about the time frame, whether it is before the Tribulation or not. And of course the timing of the Rapture is indeed before the Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble.
Also, in 150A.D. the Shepherd of Hermas preached the Rapture.
In 350A.D. Ephraim the Syrian also taught on the Rapture.
In 400A.D. Jerome also declared a Pre-Rapture.
In 1304 A.D. Dolcino proclaimed and declared the Pre-Trib. Rapture.
So no, the Pre-Trib. Rapture was NOT invented by John Darby in 1830. You are simply wrong there Plain. And you need to reconsider your position. Because right now you are clearly in error with your views.
Plain, Christians will not be going through the tribulation. Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. See 1 Thess. 5:9.
When you teach that Christians will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation, you are basically telling them not to look for Jesus Christ. But rather, you are getting Christians to look for the antichrist and new world order.
The purpose of the time of Jacob's trouble is to bring Israel into correction. It is not for the Gentile believers. It is not for the church. Read Jeremiah 30.
Again Plain, you simply do not understand what you are saying. The Premillennial View was greatly held by the Early Church Fathers. Barnabas(100), Justin Martyr(110-165), Irenaeus(120-202), the Didache (100-160) were all premillennial in their views. Especially in regard to Christ's coming to Earth.