Reversionism?

[wsblind]

We always hear the debate that The believer(saved) WILL produce fruit. WILL produce works.

And I have heard 2 basic responses if they don't.......


1.They were not really saved.


2.They will lose salvation.

Has anyone else studied, heard, believe in reversionism?

Reversionism......they look exactly like an unbeliever. They are living in the world. We will not SEE fruit or works. But they are saved. However, their inheritance in the Kingdom will be little or nothing.

I plan on saying very little, and just want to see what people think.

 

[Desertsrose]

The closest I could come up with for what you're asking. But we will see that his foundation is genuine. In other words, he's building on the truth of the gospel, the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

I'm not sure I understand this scripture, but there you have it.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[88]

We always hear the debate that The believer(saved) WILL produce fruit. WILL produce works.

And I have heard 2 basic responses if they don't.......


1.They were not really saved.


2.They will lose salvation.

Has anyone else studied, heard, believe in reversionism?

Reversionism......they look exactly like an unbeliever. They are living in the world. We will not SEE fruit or works. But they are saved. However, their inheritance in the Kingdom will be little or nothing.

I plan on saying very little, and just want to see what people think.

****I believe God wants to save us more than we want to get saved----some believers live very carnal lives for years and years and then sometimes the Lord even takes them early from this life--this is a dangerous way to live and a way of living which does not Glorify God----some want to know how close they get to hell without going to hell---I really don't know and I warn people to take God's Word seriously and live a holy and righteous life before God not to earn our salvation, which we can't, but it is a much better life than living in carnality---whatever we sow, we reap---I want to reap good things from God and not to disappoint Him...

 

[Joidevivre]

Not bearing fruit is not indicative of someone who is not saved. When I was young and chose to accept Christ's dying for my sins and giving me salvation through grace, I did not bear any fruit for quite a few years.

Eventually, He led me into a deeper walk with Him, abiding more in Him during the days, and taking in the Word in an experiential way. That was when the fruit started. The fruits of peace, joy, love and endurance, etc. came before the works did. And the works were not mine really; they were the works he did through me.

There is growth in the Christian walk, and we are not to judge where someone else is by what we see or do not see. We are told to even accept those weak in the faith.

 

[posthuman]

Not bearing fruit is not indicative of someone who is not saved.

even so, He has mercy - but the time is short

And He began telling this parable:
“A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
“And he said to the vineyard-keeper,
​

‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ ​

“And he answered and said to him,
​

‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”​

(Luke 13:6-9)

​

isn't He now interceding for us?
and who is that vineyard-keeper then, who digs around us, and fertilizes, and contends for us with the owner of the field?

 

[trofimus]

I thought reversionism is something else. That when you have works in the end, it will make you always saved retrospectively. And when you do not, it will make you always unsaved retrospectively.

Ie. something like in the quantum mechanics, that our past is changed by our present actions.

 

[posthuman]

Ie. something like in the quantum mechanics, that our past is changed by our present actions.

that concept is not actually present in physics. probably you mean how the state of things can't be determined certainly until they are observed - i.e. Schrödingers cat?

we are nearsighted, and don't know the depth and breadth, but the Lord, who observes all, collapses our wave functions

 

[posthuman]

that concept is not actually present in physics. probably you mean how the state of things can't be determined certainly until they are observed - i.e. Schrödingers cat?

we are nearsighted, and don't know the depth and breadth, but the Lord, who observes all, collapses our wave functions

this wave/particle duality and the paradox of the uncertainty principle in concept is actually a proof of God -- that the universe does not have substance until it is observed; the existence of the entire universe then, implies the existence of the omniscient observer

 

[trofimus]

that concept is not actually present in physics. probably you mean how the state of things can't be determined certainly until they are observed - i.e. Schrödingers cat?

we are nearsighted, and don't know the depth and breadth, but the Lord, who observes all, collapses our wave functions

The measurement effect, more specifically.

Elektron (for example) is a wave until we watch it /measure it. Then it changes to particle and changes also its past, it has always been a particle.

Your explanation with God watching all does not work because we would not have any waves, only particles. The spiritual observing does not have any effect on our material universe behaviour, probably.

 

[nowyouseem033]

yeah again we do not know where a person is in terms of there christian walk. whether they be new or a seasoned believer. I would say though that if a person NEVER produces fruit there, they cannot be a christian. However producing fruit only to in the end leave and reject Christ shows a fruit and faith that never withstood the trials and tribulations that God had ordained and therefore a faith that is not rooted in good soil but in some other thing/person.

 

[Grace777x70]

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like? What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't.

We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[blue_ladybug]

I've never ever even heard of the word.. lol

 

[Adstar]

We always hear the debate that The believer(saved) WILL produce fruit. WILL produce works.

And I have heard 2 basic responses if they don't.......


1.They were not really saved.


2.They will lose salvation.

Has anyone else studied, heard, believe in reversionism?

Reversionism......they look exactly like an unbeliever. They are living in the world. We will not SEE fruit or works. But they are saved. However, their inheritance in the Kingdom will be little or nothing.

I plan on saying very little, and just want to see what people think.

I think the following scriptures point to a variance of eternal outcomes in eternity with God..

1 Corinthians 3:KJV
6 "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. {7} So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. {8} Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. {9} For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. {10} According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. {11} For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. {12} Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; {13} Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. {14} If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. {15} If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Note: That in this passage even the ones who's works when put to the test where burnt up was still saved because they where building off the right foundation... So the Foundation saves us but those who's works are not good in the eyes of God will suffer loss but still they shall be saved.. But those who build something worthy and it comes through the test of fire will recieve a reward.. Which seems to point to a greater reward over and above being saved..

I have never heard of this Reversionism before.. I never knew there was such a recognized official doctrine but it seems it may have some Biblical basis for consideration..

Jesus Himself stated something that also hints at the same thing..


Matthew 5: KJV
17 "¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Note how Jesus says that both of these types of people will be in the Kingdom of Heaven? But one will be called Great and the other will called least in the Kingdom of Heaven...

 

[FreeNChrist]

We always hear the debate that The believer(saved) WILL produce fruit. WILL produce works.

And I have heard 2 basic responses if they don't.......


1.They were not really saved.


2.They will lose salvation.

Has anyone else studied, heard, believe in reversionism?

Reversionism......they look exactly like an unbeliever. They are living in the world. We will not SEE fruit or works. But they are saved. However, their inheritance in the Kingdom will be little or nothing.

I plan on saying very little, and just want to see what people think.

To start with Christians don't produce good fruit, we only bear the good fruit the Spirit produces as we abide in Christ. And we are not called to be fruit inspectors. Paul said he didn't even judge himself, let alone others. That's all above our pay grade.

"You cannot expect God to look at Dick’s placid temper and friendly disposition exactly as we do. They result from natural causes which God Himself creates. Being merely temperamental, they will all disappear if Dick’s digestion alters. The niceness, in fact, is God’s gift to Dick, not Dick’s gift to God. In the same way, God has allowed natural causes, working in a world spoiled by centuries of sin, to produce in Miss Bates the narrow mind and jangled nerves which account for most of her nastiness. He intends, in His own good time, to set that part of her right. But that is not, for God, the critical part of the business. It presents no difficulties." - C S Lewis

 

[Grandpa]

We always hear the debate that The believer(saved) WILL produce fruit. WILL produce works.

And I have heard 2 basic responses if they don't.......


1.They were not really saved.


2.They will lose salvation.

Has anyone else studied, heard, believe in reversionism?

Reversionism......they look exactly like an unbeliever. They are living in the world. We will not SEE fruit or works. But they are saved. However, their inheritance in the Kingdom will be little or nothing.

I plan on saying very little, and just want to see what people think.

Salvation is a very interesting topic.

It seems, to us, that if someone doesn't appear to be saved then they are in great peril. What if this and what if that???

But if this person gets saved later on was he ever in any peril???? Or was he always on the path towards salvation??

2 Timothy 1:7 [FONT=&quot]For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.[/FONT]

 

[samuel23]

It is very hard for us to know as a natural being(apart from God showing us) who is saved and who is not. I watched a Christian movie years ago about a group of women during the tribulation and hiding out from the AC government. Well, one of the group turned the others in and she was the most Christian girl in the bunch. The other girls said, how could you do that, and she said, I am not a Christian. The other girls looked shocked and then she said, "anyone can act like a Christian". I don't think so much about real Christians that do not seem to do much, as I do pseudo Christians, people who are often times more Christian then the real Christians. I feel such sorry for such people because when they leave this life they are going to be in for a terrible shock. These folks are often leaders and some even have big ministries.

 

[posthuman]

The measurement effect, more specifically.

Elektron (for example) is a wave until we watch it /measure it. Then it changes to particle and changes also its past, it has always been a particle.

Your explanation with God watching all does not work because we would not have any waves, only particles. The spiritual observing does not have any effect on our material universe behaviour, probably.

OK, i see what you mean. But i think of things existing in both opposing States simultaneously, for example, observing wave interaction of light in a double slit experiment doesn't nullify the photoelectric effect.


Also nuts, that God must exist as a result of the existence of all creation sure sounded cool. Actually heard a preacher make that case last week and have been mulling over the thought. Still, God became flesh, and pitched His tent among us....!

 

[valiant]

It is very hard for us to know as a natural being(apart from God showing us) who is saved and who is not.

Hard? It is impossible, apart from ourselves.

I

watched a Christian movie years ago about a group of women during the tribulation and hiding out from the AC government. Well, one of the group turned the others in and she was the most Christian girl in the bunch.

You mean she SEEMED to be? Though the movie was based on a false theology.

The other girls said, how could you do that, and she said, I am not a Christian. The other girls looked shocked and then she said, "anyone can act like a Christian".

She KNEW she was not a Christian. End of story.

I don't think so much about real Christians that do not seem to do much, as I do pseudo Christians, people who are often times more Christian then the real Christians. I feel such sorry for such people because when they leave this life they are going to be in for a terrible shock. These folks are often leaders and some even have big ministries.

Hmmmmm?

 

[wsblind]

I've never ever even heard of the word.. lol

A good biblical point of reference would be King Saul. Moses, for a long while.

 

[wsblind]

It is very hard for us to know as a natural being(apart from God showing us) who is saved and who is not.

I would disagree. We will know them by their fruits.

But fruit is their DOCTRINE. Their Faith. Their wisdom of the mind of Christ.

And I would agree with you. If we are watching their overt actions, how they live, what they do. Everybody is a sinner, so if we are focused on SEEING fruit, it's anybodies guess.