Sins of the Fathers... or not?

ThePottersClay · Jul 19, 2014

We always refer to the verse stating that the Sins of the fathers will fall on the children..

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

But now I am reading this verse:

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Please explain....

Flamingspirit · Jul 19, 2014

ThePottersClay said:

No man dies for another man's sins. But what these and especially the verse quoted in Isaiah is what is going on in the world. We prepare our children for slaughter by passing on this dead system of living.

We were brought up by our parents to pay bills. We will raise our children up to do the same dead thing, not understanding that in this is where hate is taught.

We therefore perish because of lack of knowledge.

ThePottersClay · Jul 19, 2014

Thank you, that makes a little more sense.

Flamingspirit said:

No man dies for another man's sins. But what these and especially the verse quoted in Isaiah is what is going on in the world. We prepare our children for slaughter by passing on this dead system of living.

We were brought up by our parents to pay bills. We will raise our children up to do the same dead thing, not understanding that in this is where hate is taught.

We therefore perish because of lack of knowledge.

Flamingspirit · Jul 19, 2014

ThePottersClay said:

We have to look and see with the eyes God gave us to. I don't care what that TV says, it is ALL entertainment designed to keep us misinformed. If the news man has to wear make up and read from a script, how does that differ from the actors in Hollywood? It doesn't because it's ALL Hollywood!

The truth is we have enough of EVERYTHING, but people starve because we worship money and the things we make.

Butch5 · Jul 19, 2014

ThePottersClay said:

Hi ThePottersClay,

Here's some food for thought. Notice verse 20 in Isaiah 14.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. (Isa 14:20 KJV)

Jesus spoke of generations as good or wicked, for instance He said,

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Mat 16:4 KJV)

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Mat 12:34 KJV)

He refers to the wicked as a generation. In other words they come from the same source. I think this is what is being addressed in Isaiah 14:21. The fathers would be those wicked men that preceded those Isaiah is speaking of. Jesus also touched on this same thing.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(Mat 23:28-38 KJV)

I think what Isaiah is saying in chapter 14 is that they are all of one generation and guilty of those things Isaiah speaks of.

Simiel · Jul 19, 2014

Ezekiel 18: 19*“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.*20*The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21*“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.22*None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.*23*Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord*God, “and*not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Simiel · Jul 19, 2014

Simiel said:

Ezekiel 18: 19*“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.*20*The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21*“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.22*None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.*23*Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord*God, “and*not that he should turn from his ways and live?

No generational curses.

Plus if your reborn you got a new family and new farther ;P

Jeff_56 · Feb 28, 2015

as just posted in another thread,
this
is
right- there is enough, but people don't follow Jesus doing what Father says to do.
most
have
never
even
read the first five books with His directions what to do so EVERYONE has what they need and EVERYONE is doing what is right.

it is there. people just don't care.

only
a
few
find
the way God shows, even though He shows very clearly. and Jesus proved it is possible and
made it possible for all who call on Him.

Flamingspirit said:

JonahLynx · Feb 28, 2015

One possible explanation is that "the iniquity of the fathers" implies that the children were perpetrating the same acts as their ancestors. Jesus makes this allusion regarding the Pharisees who were persecuting Him just as their forefathers persecuted the prophets. The Deuteronomy passage speaks strictly to justice; a son cannot be charged with a crime that his father committed, only a crime that the son himself committed.

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 28, 2015

Ezekiel 18 18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

p_rehbein · Feb 28, 2015

2 Corinthinas 5:9 .) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 .) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The "father" will be accountable for his own sins..........not me........just saying

Sophia · Feb 28, 2015

You must divide the physical from the spiritual.
We earn death by our own sins.
We earn spiritual death by our father's sins. And earn spiritual life from our father's righteousness.
Who is your father? God or Satan?
Those in Christ are adopted as Children of God, but those who do not believe do the work of their father: the devil.

Tintin · Feb 28, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

While it's true that many have never even read the whole Pentateuch, the answer isn't to obey the laws found in the OT. We live in New Covenant times, where Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Law. If we're in Christ, we're no longer under the Law.

DesiredHaven · Feb 28, 2015

Its found twice here isnt it?

Written of here

Duet 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

And then here it says,

2 Kings 14:5And it came to pass, as soon as the kingdom was confirmed in his hand, that he slew his servants which had slain the king his father.

And then excuted accordingly here correct?

2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

That language of murders and death later sounds familar a little

Jeff_56 · Feb 28, 2015

Flamingspirit said:

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Mat 16:4 KJV)

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Mat 12:34 KJV)

yahweh has provided enough of everything generously for life, and for eternal life as well, in and by and through christ jesus. men just keep messing up (a very polite way of saying they condemn themselves over and over and over again, and keep denying yahshua the messiah, and keep opposing the father yahweh elohim. )

no one shows they understand this - not the rich for obvious reasons yahshua stated often, nor even the oppressed poor and needy, because they are lied to so often and may never hear the truth or read it....

as for the lawless, they will be resurrected to judgment. they have no idea what yahweh's word says. (apparently they haven't even read it).

WebersHome · Mar 1, 2015

-
Long story short: David breached the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed
upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15 by committing the capital crimes of
premeditated murder and adultery (2Sam 11:1-2Sam 12:23). As bad as
those two breaches are; what really rattled heaven's cage was that David's
conduct was an embarrassment.

†. 2Sam 12:14a . . Because by this deed you have given occasion to the
enemies of The Lord to blaspheme,

What might the nature of that blasphemy be? Well behavior like David's
causes the world to question the wisdom of Yhvh's choice of a people for His
name. That's a very common form of blaspheme: it goes on all the time.

†. 2Sam 12:14b-18 . . the child also that is born to you shall surely die . .
.The Lord struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was
very sick . . .Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died.

How was that fair? Well; it wasn't meant to be fair to the boy; it was meant
to be fair to David. His little boy was just collateral damage.

†. Ex 34:6-7 . . Then Yhvh passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed:
Yhvh, Yhvh God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding
in loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who
forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the
guilty unpunished: visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the
grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.

It is apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their
posterity and/or the people they govern. For example: Ham's punishment
for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses'
face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with
all those of his subjects. But the capper is the 70,000 Israeli citizens who
went to their deaths through no fault of their own because their king
breached the covenant by ordering a census. (2Sam 24:1-15, 1Chron 21:1
14)

Interesting isn't it? There are times when Heaven's anger seems to come out
of the blue; but if truth be known; sometimes it actually comes out of the
past; for example:

†. 2Sam 21:1 . . Now there was a famine in the days of David for three
years, year after year; and David sought the presence of the Lord. And the
Lord said: It is for Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites
to death.

Joshua agreed to a non-aggression pact with the Gibeonites during the
conquest of Canaan (Josh 9:3-16). Saul, when king, dishonored the pact. He
apparently got away with it; but not his countrymen, no; God slammed them
for what Saul did; and that posthumously.

Moral of the story: The sins of today, jeopardize the lives of tomorrow; and
sometimes those lives are very large in number; e.g. the Holocaust.

======================================

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Sins of the Fathers... or not?

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