Some advice re 'Born Again' please

[kenisyes]

I thank you very much for taking the time to replying to my post but I appologise, I feel no warmth, or compassion from you. Your words and the way you write and reply is, to me, clinical and cold. I am sure what you say is accurate...learned...wise? and yo do not mean to be so distant. I see you are a 'senior member' & have over 2,208 posts, this is admirable but does not signify compassion or thoughtfulness. Feelings, as you say, are indeed irrelvant to facts but to many are extremely powerful.

It took a while to separate if you are writing to me. You can click "reply with quote" and that makes it clear which post you are responding to. I'm sorry it sounded that way. "Senior member' just means how much I like to post, has nothing to do with wisdom. I am trying to do better for you. Feelings are extremely powerful, you are right. So many are misled by them, even at the highest levels of visibility in ministry. I meant only that you put faith in the facts and the feelings will follow. I just posted trying to clarify the other part of that post.

In relationship with God, one might find the intellectual thought the most important bond, another the emotional, another the work He can accomplish in or through us. It's different kinds of love for people made to love differently. Just find what He has for you, and trust that god knows what He is doing.

 

[crossnote]

It took a while to separate if you are writing to me. You can click "reply with quote" and that makes it clear which post you are responding to. I'm sorry it sounded that way. "Senior member' just means how much I like to post, has nothing to do with wisdom. I am trying to do better for you. Feelings are extremely powerful, you are right. So many are misled by them, even at the highest levels of visibility in ministry. I meant only that you put faith in the facts and the feelings will follow. I just posted trying to clarify the other part of that post.

In relationship with God, one might find the intellectual thought the most important bond, another the emotional, another the work He can accomplish in or through us. It's different kinds of love for people made to love differently. Just find what He has for you, and trust that god knows what He is doing.

Who else had 2200 plus posts

 

[kenisyes]

Who else had 2200 plus posts

That's what took me a while to check out. I don't watch that too close.

 

[zone]

 

[kenisyes]

Oh, dear, and I did not expect any Valentines. Is that even though I pray in tongues?

 

[hattiebod]

Thank you for your reply. I just wanted to say that I was asking for some advice for a friend....I am born again, I am in a very close, fulfilling & loving walk with God, I attend a wonderful solid Bible preaching & believing Church & have good Christian & non Christian friends, I attend a Bible study group run my older 'mentoring' Christians. The gentlemen i heard speak was at a prayer group I was invited to, i went, it was interesting but I do know God has given me discernment. I was asking for some advice re my friend (recently introduced) as she believes she is saved, but has not got the personal relationship with God, the freedom, the joy. She seeks it, cries out for it but it illudes her. She has approached people in the past more learned than me, leaders in churches and their response has uniformly to tell her she is not saved. This has distressed her greatly and she withdrew. She does attend Church...she loves the Word, its quite complex to explain here, i simply wondered if you could offer me some advice. By her own admission, she has never had 'fire' for the Lord but she is passionate, she has sought this deeper relationship for over 40 years!! I understand she may not be born again, but thats not terribly helpful. I need to meet her where she is at and not drive her away.
Thanks <><

 

[kenisyes]

This is a different case. I had thought you wanted to understand why people are content not to have what you have. If she is not content with her own feeling of lukewarmness, has she tried asking for the baptism of the Spirit? The phrase is not really Scriptural, as you have the Holy SPirit when you get saved. But aksing that the Spirit be released in you helps people who were raised in traditional churches that did not talk about the Holy SPirit very much. I know many people who this is all they had to do. Just pray with her, or have her pray for herself, that God will give her the Holy SPirit in full measure. God seems to do it automatically; I've never known it not to work. Results vary, but to a person, everyone gets a closeness to God that they describe as wonderful and great progress.

 

[mark54]

I was asking for some advice re my friend (recently introduced) as she believes she is saved, but has not got the personal relationship with God, the freedom, the joy. She seeks it, cries out for it but it illudes her. She has approached people in the past more learned than me, leaders in churches and their response has uniformly to tell her she is not saved. This has distressed her greatly and she withdrew. <><

Hi Hattie

This may not be much help, but I can only speak from personal experiance as I do not know your friend.

I grew up looking at others in church who seemed to be full of God, but I wasn't. I desperately tried to live a good life for God but I couldn't do it. I was prayed for to receive what is commonly termed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but to no avail. I felt and saw no power in my life. I heard countless sermons in 'born again' churches, but it made no difference. In the end I gave up with God, believing someone like me could not be a Christian.
Years later I read a book on Grace, and for the first in my life believed I had right standing with the Father solely based on what Christ did for me at Calvary, I was free, my guilt and shame could go, what joy for me who had always felt I was too sinful a person for God to accept or bless.
In the solitude of my bedroom I asked again for the filling of the Spirit, this time believing it did not depend, or hinge on my own personal goodness, but what Christ had done for me at Calvary, I received.
As long as God had first place in my life, I grew, I was happy, happier than I had ever been, and as happy as I saw other Christians. But when God did not have first place in my life that all changed, and at times sent me back to where I had been before Grace discovered me

So what am I trying to say?

Does your friend truly understand Grace? Does she in her heart know she can only ever have one righteousness in God's sight? Faith in Christ. That is the only thing that can ever make her acceptable to God. And she can only truly grow if she looks away from herself, her failings and imperfections and trust Christ to change her by the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Or, does she try and climb that mountain so many try and climb, closeness to God based on her own effort to live a good enough life for him(law)
Or, does she not want to give God from, the heart what he requires of her?

For God requires differently from each of us. We all have our own individual cross to take up, and some are asked more than others.

I have seen often, those who struggle the most can be used the most eventually
However, as Kensys says, the filling of the Spirit is key. I haven't read all of your posts on this, so do not know if your friend has sought this or not

Basically in my own life I have had at times two major Problems
Firstly, I did not understand the truth of the Gospel, and that as I say in spite of hearing numerous sermons, and from those condsidered 'learned' and born again
Secondly, and to my shame I have not for most of my life been prepared to take up my individual cross that has been required of me.

I don't know if you feel any of the above can be related to your friend. But I just wanted to share my own experiance with you on this
God Bless

 

[nonicknametouse]

Becoming born again is this. You were born a physical birth. We did not choose to be born, but the Lord wanted to place us on this earth, so here we are. When you become born again you are making a choice to be born again spiritually. Thats when you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and you will be saved. That is Romans 10: 9. When you receive the Lord in your life you receive the Holy Spirit. He is your councelor. Now you are set free from every passed sin you ever comitted. If you wrote every sin on a black board, the Lord comes with a big eraser and wipes that board of sins away. Now when you pray to the Father in heaven the blood of Jesus covers you . He can no longer see your sins. Jesus took all the burdens of sin on Himself at the cross. How awesome is that.

 

[Mark51]

Many believe that the expression “born again” refers to someone who makes a solemn promise to serve God and Christ and, as a result, is changed from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. Consider what the Bible says.

The expression “born again” is mainly discussed at John 3:1-12. In this account, Jesus highlights several aspect of the “new birth,” and emphasized that it is of great importance. Compare 1 Peter 1:3, 23. Considering this, Christians should make sure that they understand this subject and the following vital questions accurately.

· How important is the new birth?
· Is it up to us to decide to experience the new birth?
· What is its purpose?
· By what means does it take place?
· What change of relationship does it bring about?

Jesus stated: “Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) The words “unless” and “cannot” highlight the necessity of the new birth. In other words, he was stating that being born again is absolutely necessary for seeing God’s Kingdom.

Some teach/believe that it is up to each believer to obey Jesus and take the necessary steps to undergo the new birth-a personal choice. The Greek expression “is born again” can also be rendered “should be born from above.” Thus, according to that alternate rendering, the new birth originates “from above”-that is, “from heaven,” or “from the Father.” (James 1:17) Yes, it is caused by God. (John 1:13; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 3:9) It is rendered in the form of a statement. Jesus was stating a fact or requirement-not giving a command. The account shows that Jesus’ words did not teach that it is up to us to choose whether to experience the new birth or not.

Many believe that one needs to be born again to receive eternal salvation also; and, that the two expression-entering into God’s kingdom and receiving salvation-refer to the same reward. A kingdom is a form of a government and this specific government is of God. (Daniel 7:13, 14) This same kingdom is also called “the kingdom of the heavens.” (Mathew 13:11; Luke 8:10) When Jesus stated that one must be born again to “enter into the kingdom of God,” he meant that one needs to be born again in order to become a ruler with him in heaven. Simply put, the purpose of the new birth is to prepare a limited group of humans for heavenly rulership. This shows that Jesus and his fellow kings will rule from heaven over the earth.-Revelations 5:9, 10; 20:6.

This new birth takes place by means of a twofold process. It is accomplished by a person being born again of “water and spirit.” In other words, of first being baptized in water-for a public witness; and, then by means of God’s Holy Spirit, being baptized of spirit-only if He chooses certain ones to serve as a co-ruler in his kingdom.-Mark 1:9-11; John 3:22; 4:1-3; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4. Compare Romans 6:3-5.

When a person undergoes both baptisms, they experience the new birth, a remarkable change, a new beginning in the relationship with God. Through this preparation, those specially favored would experience an “adoption as sons” and that God, therefore, could deal with them “as with sons.” (Romans 8:15, 16; Galatians 4:5) His spirit implants in those “adopted as sons” the conviction that they would live with Christ in Heaven.-2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; 6:18.

God’s word also states that others-besides those who are born again-will receive everlasting salvation. In the Bible, it mentions that God purposed to save two groups of people-a comparatively small group of rulers living in heaven and a large group of subjects living on earth. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16; 14:2, 3; 1 John 2:2) Their privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying life without end on paradise earth.-Psalms 37:9, 11, 22, 29, 34; Proverbs 2:21; Isaiah 45:18; Revelations 7:9, 13, 14. Compare Psalms 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:18.

 

[Cobus]

Hattiebod, now time for the BORN AGAIN as the Bible explains....
Firstly what does God say about BORN AGIAN.... God also calls it... Born of God/New creature/conformed to the image of His Son/New wine/Seed that produce good fruit/ AND MANY other things... but they ALL mean one thing... To be IN GOD or FROM GOD! It is a position where God had put a person, AND HIMSELF.

All these situations means only ONE THING.... God in the person, and the person IN GOD. Born of water is NOT THE WATER BAPTISM as some believe.... BORN of WATER is born of the water that Jesus mentioned to the woman by the well. And the water that Jesus mentioned is LIVING WATER. It is not anything about Hydrogen or Oxygen, or what we or God does with Hydrogen and Oxygen molecules. It is waters that will FLOW like rivers from our bellies ...WHEN WE ARE BORN OF GOD.

Birth from that Water, is TRUTH the WORD of God is that WATER. What did ALL God's children have came from their mouth's.... God's WORD! God says it is not the things that goes into your mouth that makes you impure or pur, it is the things that CAOMES OUT... If living waters come out, do you think it is still IMPURE? Nope....

So let us focus on BORN AGAIN. God says this in 1 John 3.... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The first thing I notice here is that God says, whosoever is BORN of God... Not Matured in God or grown in God or fully grown in God.... BORN OF GOD...Does not commit sin, and he CANNOT sin. So after Born Again, or Born of God a person CANNOT SIN.
There is no need to explain, it is in plain English and even 8 year old little people understand the concept and context of BORN OF GOD and the CONNOT SIN. It is false teachings and false preachers that confuse the state of a BORN AGAIN person. God gave us a parable of a corn of weat. God said if that little corn does not fall to the groung and DIE, it CANNOT produce fruit. Same with us. If we do not DIE OFF THE OLD MAN, we CANNOT GET THIS SEED OF GOD TO REMAIN IN US!
Do I preach a works salvation? Well consider this... IS STOPPING to sin works? Or is it STOPPING WORKIN INIQUITY? Is STOPPING working also work? NOPE! It is STOP working. In other words.... Do not use any joules (energy) to sin. Work is using energy, a scientific fact. No energy, no work. So even scientifically we are not preaching WORK salvation, we preach DO NOT WORK salvation. God will SHOW YOU WHAT TO STOP DOING!, and LATER he will TELL/SHOW you what to WORK. And if you refuse to do that it is also sin.
This is where most people get it wrong. Most people understand that they need to do GOOD and they did not even sto to do bad. It is not a balnce sheet. DIE OFF THE OLD MAN.... God is the NEW MAN! Christ Jesus is the NEW MAN. That is rebirth. It is not YOU BORN AGAIN, it is CHRIST JESUS BORN INTO YOU!
And EVERY person that is Born of God is....1 John 5:18... We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you see that the wicket one cannot even TOUCH them... That is how thorough God saves in Born of GOD!

 

[superdave5221]

"also, my minister gentleman said the indicates the OT should be forgotten thrown out, it was unforgiving & unloving."

This concerns me the most as it to me indicates a minister who does not have the Holy Spirit/not born again.
This is a mantra of liberal christianity, Europe is full of and America increasingly so.
Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (all scripture means all) and 1Corinthians 10:6

Quite so Crossnote! How can we really appreciate the full magnitude of the love of God if we are unaware of the Old Testament Law, and God sending His Son Jesus to die on the cross to satisfy the demands of that Law? This is the ultimate love in action, made necessary by our iniquities, and God's holiness and need for justice.

Satan, the god of all dissension stirs up daily new sects. And last of all which of all others I should never have forseen or once suspected, he has raised up a sect such as teach that men should not be terrified of the law, but gently exhorted by the preaching of the grace of Christ.

--the preface of Luther's Commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, 1535.

What arrogance of this minister to judge God as unloving and unforgiving when the entire O.T. points to the ultimate sacrifice in love.

Would he also throw out Genesis, and the record of our beginnings and purpose of existence? This is Genecide! Jesus quoted Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 and the book is mentioned more than 60 times in 17 books of the N.T.

People must become more biblically literate, so that they will not be led astray by teachers such as this.

 

[homwardbound]

Dear Friends,
I am quite a new member here and would like some advice please. When i became a Christian 12 years ago I just assumed that my journey was typical. I was isolated in a way, as I was convicted of the truth while living in China (another story and I thought everyone who found the Lord was on fire!! On returning to the UK 4 years ago, I learnt there is no such thing as typical. And fires can be of very different strengths. I attended a talk last night on healing given by a lovley retired Scottish minister. He has served the church faithfully for 50+ years but freely admitted to us that he was not 'born in the spirit' until 10 years ago. In other words, he was a Christian, believed in God, preached & believed in the resurrection of Christ, in the inerrancy of the Bible....but had no idea of the freedom & power of the Holy Spirit. I accept this as his story but personaly found this difficult...added to this I have a friend who 'believes in God', has had a very traumatic past, declares her 'safety i Christ' yet questions wether she will ever get to heaven (cannot believe it) has
no real relationship with Christ at all (tells me, What? Christ? no, I speak to God....) and has no freedom, no joy in her life at all as a Christian. God seems to her all powerful but not knowable...I would like to understand this more, rather than offer platitudes....go and pray etc, i would really like some discussion on this. Naivley I thought you 'had' to be born again to be in a relationship with Christ...also, my minister gentleman said the OT should be forgotten, thrown out, it was unforgiving & unloving. I understood the new covenant was brought in by Christ but He himself said he did not come to replace it...oh dear!! I would appreciate some clarity. I know I can and will get it through this by returning to the Word in prayer etc but, it is such a blessing to be able to communicate with like minded folks and discuss what we all love, the Truth. There is more I can add, if anyone would like to engage with me on this, ask away!! I thank you all in advance!! <><

You mentioned that the pastor did not receive the Holy Ghost until years later, served over 50 years in belief of Christ
Well guess what he did not realize that from the first day of belief that he and all people that believe are sealed from that day of belief with the Holy Spirit of promise and from that day on the Holy Spirit has come to live in you to teach you to trust in God the Father and God the son and that through this belief you get the love of God shed abroad in your heart and can't help but to shed abroad this love to all and not all will accept this love and come against you only to try and get you to doubt and thus you walk back into the flesh attitude of this world, and God is the opposite of the world and the world is opposite of God
His kingdom is not of this world. See the love of God in 1 cor.13 from verse 4 on this is the type of love that he has bestowed on the ones that believe in him. Ephesians 1:13 [h=3]Ephesians 1:13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
In God's love homwrdbound

 

[homwardbound]

Hattiebod, now time for the BORN AGAIN as the Bible explains....
Firstly what does God say about BORN AGIAN.... God also calls it... Born of God/New creature/conformed to the image of His Son/New wine/Seed that produce good fruit/ AND MANY other things... but they ALL mean one thing... To be IN GOD or FROM GOD! It is a position where God had put a person, AND HIMSELF.

All these situations means only ONE THING.... God in the person, and the person IN GOD. Born of water is NOT THE WATER BAPTISM as some believe.... BORN of WATER is born of the water that Jesus mentioned to the woman by the well. And the water that Jesus mentioned is LIVING WATER. It is not anything about Hydrogen or Oxygen, or what we or God does with Hydrogen and Oxygen molecules. It is waters that will FLOW like rivers from our bellies ...WHEN WE ARE BORN OF GOD.

Birth from that Water, is TRUTH the WORD of God is that WATER. What did ALL God's children have came from their mouth's.... God's WORD! God says it is not the things that goes into your mouth that makes you impure or pur, it is the things that CAOMES OUT... If living waters come out, do you think it is still IMPURE? Nope....

So let us focus on BORN AGAIN. God says this in 1 John 3.... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The first thing I notice here is that God says, whosoever is BORN of God... Not Matured in God or grown in God or fully grown in God.... BORN OF GOD...Does not commit sin, and he CANNOT sin. So after Born Again, or Born of God a person CANNOT SIN.
There is no need to explain, it is in plain English and even 8 year old little people understand the concept and context of BORN OF GOD and the CONNOT SIN. It is false teachings and false preachers that confuse the state of a BORN AGAIN person. God gave us a parable of a corn of weat. God said if that little corn does not fall to the groung and DIE, it CANNOT produce fruit. Same with us. If we do not DIE OFF THE OLD MAN, we CANNOT GET THIS SEED OF GOD TO REMAIN IN US!
Do I preach a works salvation? Well consider this... IS STOPPING to sin works? Or is it STOPPING WORKIN INIQUITY? Is STOPPING working also work? NOPE! It is STOP working. In other words.... Do not use any joules (energy) to sin. Work is using energy, a scientific fact. No energy, no work. So even scientifically we are not preaching WORK salvation, we preach DO NOT WORK salvation. God will SHOW YOU WHAT TO STOP DOING!, and LATER he will TELL/SHOW you what to WORK. And if you refuse to do that it is also sin.
This is where most people get it wrong. Most people understand that they need to do GOOD and they did not even sto to do bad. It is not a balnce sheet. DIE OFF THE OLD MAN.... God is the NEW MAN! Christ Jesus is the NEW MAN. That is rebirth. It is not YOU BORN AGAIN, it is CHRIST JESUS BORN INTO YOU!
And EVERY person that is Born of God is....1 John 5:18... We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you see that the wicket one cannot even TOUCH them... That is how thorough God saves in Born of GOD!

Cobus does the born again begin at belief even though you sin as you grow? when does the Hoply Ghost impregnate the believer? When does new birth begin?

 

[susanblange]

Being "born again" is a spiritual rebirth and baptism-sprinkling where you receive the Holy Spirit. This is usually accompanied by visions and dreams and results in a new person who becomes righteous-law abiding. It doesn't mean you will never sin again, it takes a long time to become holy, and it is a learning process.

 

[homwardbound]

also, my minister gentleman said the OT should be forgotten, thrown out, it was unforgiving & unloving

I see the old testament as a giant and the new testamnent as a midget, so if you throw out the giant and keep just the midget how will one see not very far! Nowif you take the giant and the midget side by side who sees farther down the road? why that would be the Giant right?
But if you put the midget on top of the giants shoulders who then sees farther? the midget. This is how it is with the Old teastament and the new Testament
Also saying that it was unloving and unforgiving is a lie, For God from day one told Adam and Eve if they eat of the tree of evil they would die. God is not a liar and God had no choice but to put them out of the Garden, they died that day to the Spirit of God, BUT GOD still had Mercy on them and clothed them, as you read on, yousee God still continied with Mercy on those that wanted to know him. God even had Mercy on Cain after Cain did what Cain did. God even told Cain before Cain killed Able that he could offer another sacrifice that would be pleasing unto the Lord, The Lord told Cain that sin was crouching at the door, the enemy the devil had injected thoughts of Jealousy in Cains head, Cain had not yet accepted these thoughts of but God saw that he was about to and kill Able.
And Cain killed Able and God had MERCY above anyones sacrifices and gifts God requires MERCY this is what has been from the first dayof the fall and has not changed one Iota and never will for God is the same, today, yesterday and forever.
Thererfore just seek the Mercy of God and know this Mercy and pass it on as God leads to do by the Holy Ghost that lives in you ask for him to live through you
Love homwardbound

 

[hattiebod]

People today fall in love, and burn with passion for each other, kind of like being born again is for some people. it does not have to be that way. Do you know the show "Fiddler on the Roof"? Remember the song where the husband and wife sing to each other "Do you love me?" Here's a link. Do you suppose this is anything like Jesus and the Bride? Fiddler on the roof - Do you love me ? (with subtitles) - YouTube

I wish to apologise for speaking unkindly in response to your reply to me and admit it was not also appropriate. I am afraid i was frustrated that I was not being understood, my fault for not being clear, not yours. My response has sat very badly with me and I want to say I am sorry. I have seen other posts you have posted, my accusations are unfounded! and I hope we can wipe the slate clean!

 

[susanblange]

The "old covenant"-the Testimony or the 10 commandments is an everlasting, perpetual covenant for all of mankind. The Messiah will be perfect in this law and holy.

 

[kenisyes]

I wish to apologise for speaking unkindly in response to your reply to me and admit it was not also appropriate. I am afraid i was frustrated that I was not being understood, my fault for not being clear, not yours. My response has sat very badly with me and I want to say I am sorry. I have seen other posts you have posted, my accusations are unfounded! and I hope we can wipe the slate clean!

Honestly, I was tired and should have waited until I was more alert. I felt bad as well. Slate is clean. I'm sure I will have forgotten the whole incident in a few mintues. If you think my other suggestion might be worth a try, let me know how it works. If you have any questions about it, please let me know.