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T
I'm sorry, but your assumption about my faith maturity is false. I have been a Christian for 38 years and am Bible college educated. I am familiar with the passages you have provided along with Rom 12, the account of Job, Romans 9 and II Cor 10 all of which deal with the mind, wisdom and discernment. You seem to be suggesting that there is no ability of the carnal to understand spiritual issues. Are we simply to tell people that their questions don't have answers because they are too carnal to understand? Did you happen to see the debate between Nye and Ham regarding Evolution and Creationism? Ken Ham has created a museum to display the science and logistics related to a young earth and to support the Genesis account of creation. While spoke of his faith during the debate, he also supported his faith system with the "carnal" knowledge available to believers and unbelievers alike. Logic, science, reasoning, philosophy, psychology etc are not carnal therefore rendering them immaterial to the discussion. Many carnal individuals demonstrate God's gifts and His nature although they will not acknowledge it or credit Him with it. I did not say that faith is lazy. I said there are too many people who talk about having faith and spend little or no time preparing to give a defense of it. Big difference.
Either you believe it fully with your spirit or you don't, that is not the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
"Many carnal individuals demonstrate God's gifts and His nature although they will not acknowledge it or credit Him with it."
Statements like this prove you really don't have an understanding of the word. TO be carnally minded is death...PERIOD.
There is no way to use carnality to understand the Spiritual, and your insistence in attempting to do so, shows your motive and your spiritual maturity. I have shown you scriptures that prove this, but you want to be Burger King and want to understand God and his spiritual things your way.
Good luck with that...
R
God's nature contains all the elements you mentioned which is what makes this issue so difficult. Since He is perfect, why did he implement a plan He knew to be fatally flawed? /QUOTE]
Right there - your assuming it to be fatally flawed - you have inserted your definition of a fatally flawed plan
Right there - your assuming it to be fatally flawed - you have inserted your definition of a fatally flawed plan
R
You are not engaging in apologetic or defending the faith and quite honestly you are asking things a 5th grade Sunday school kid would already know. You may be Bible college educated and have been a Christian for 38 years, but your questions show at a babes understanding of the word.
Either you believe it fully with your spirit or you don't, that is not the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
"Many carnal individuals demonstrate God's gifts and His nature although they will not acknowledge it or credit Him with it."
Statements like this prove you really don't have an understanding of the word. TO be carnally minded is death...PERIOD.
There is no way to use carnality to understand the Spiritual, and your insistence in attempting to do so, shows your motive and your spiritual maturity. I have shown you scriptures that prove this, but you want to be Burger King and want to understand God and his spiritual things your way.
Good luck with that...
Either you believe it fully with your spirit or you don't, that is not the answer you want, but it is the correct answer.
"Many carnal individuals demonstrate God's gifts and His nature although they will not acknowledge it or credit Him with it."
Statements like this prove you really don't have an understanding of the word. TO be carnally minded is death...PERIOD.
There is no way to use carnality to understand the Spiritual, and your insistence in attempting to do so, shows your motive and your spiritual maturity. I have shown you scriptures that prove this, but you want to be Burger King and want to understand God and his spiritual things your way.
Good luck with that...
T
Your responses are becoming increasingly more hostile as you seek to diminish or dismiss my questions. 5th graders asking questions are are given answers which they generally accept until they get to high school or college and then the notion of "Because I said so" loses its credibility. At that point the same question requires a more expanded answer as the child is able to reason abstractly. Your continued assertion that your understanding is the end of the discussion demonstrates unnecessary fear and insecurity. We are carnal and spiritual at the same time. Maybe this is an issue of semantics. I am interpreting your use of carnal/carnality as someone who is not a Christian and without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There are many, many non-faith oriented people who demonstrate the ability to understand spiritual concepts. They may not respond to them because of their own rebellion, but it doesn't mean they don't grasp the concept. As far as my insistence on attempting to use the carnal... I came to this site to engage believers, whom I assume are more likely to be rooted in the Spirit, than those on an atheist site. I'm sorry you find this so agitating, but you needn't be.
The Bible never said we are carnal and spiritual at the same time, to say so means you call the Bible and God a liar.
Romans 8 proves your statements are wrong.
I only get agitated when someone is saying things that are completely at odds with God's Word. Sorry buddy, but the fact is you are in complete error and sadly also are in complete denial.
You engaged me alright, because you say things that are not even Biblical and when called out, then hide under Gee wally, I went to Bible college and I have been a Christian fer 38 years.
You are a carnal babe and continue to persist in saying things that go against the word of God. All your statements contradict the very nature of God.
I'm not suggesting there were better alternatives other than choosing to examine the option before you and not exercising it. God was not obligated or forced to create man. He created man in spite of what He knew would be the consequences both for Himself, us and His son. Again, this is not an exploration of free will, but what came before freewill was even in play. The movie director scenario is a good analogy. Directors get a lot of scripts and choose not to make the majority of them for one reason or another. This "script" had a fatal flaw, but He chose to make the movie anyway. Can you imagine a director who decides to make a movie knowing that most of the cast and crew would die and forever be lost? What would we call someone who knows this in advance and makes the movie anyway for his own glorification? Utopia existed prior to the fall. After the fall there was only misery and suffering by a majority of inhabitants of the earth. Paradise lost. He knew in advance this would be the case and did it anyway. That is the point of contention. The point I am grappling with.
idk, just trying to understand a little better, as someone noted not as suffering is bad and helps us grow.
P
God loves us dearly. He gave the most precious thing in the universe His Son, Jesus for us. The Lord also gave us freewill - to choose who and what we will believe in and how we will act. We have contaminated our world not only with polluntants but with anger and hatred. If there are no consequences to our actions, if the Lord acted like some celestial bellboy showing up to clean up every mess we make is there freewill? I believe God hates suffering, pain, disease and death. We are to be His hands each one of us helping our neighbor in the same sense of the Good Samaritan. Much more easily said than done for most people who hold thier time precious and thier money moreso. I don't blame God at all. I'm praying he's gonna melt your hearts with His love.
N
Another thing we have to remember is that a life time for us is mere seconds to God. What we view as years and years of hardship or heart ache or trouble is merely a drop in the cosmic bucket for God and therefore a single step towards the fulfillment of His ultimate plan.
I have had a very difficult year, starting in Dec. 2012. Changes in living situation that I did not want to happen and I'm getting through it all by reminding myself daily that this is temporary, that this too shall pass. I ask God for some hint into His purpose for all this but all I really need is to know that there is. I see things I am able to do because I'm available (not working, still searching) that I truly believe are a blessing to others and perhaps that's part of the purpose, for me to be available to these people at this time.
I have had a very difficult year, starting in Dec. 2012. Changes in living situation that I did not want to happen and I'm getting through it all by reminding myself daily that this is temporary, that this too shall pass. I ask God for some hint into His purpose for all this but all I really need is to know that there is. I see things I am able to do because I'm available (not working, still searching) that I truly believe are a blessing to others and perhaps that's part of the purpose, for me to be available to these people at this time.
Ok let me dumb this down so you get it.
The Bible never said we are carnal and spiritual at the same time, to say so means you call the Bible and God a liar.
Romans 8 proves your statements are wrong.
I only get agitated when someone is saying things that are completely at odds with God's Word. Sorry buddy, but the fact is you are in complete error and sadly also are in complete denial.
You engaged me alright, because you say things that are not even Biblical and when called out, then hide under Gee wally, I went to Bible college and I have been a Christian fer 38 years.
You are a carnal babe and continue to persist in saying things that go against the word of God. All your statements contradict the very nature of God.
The Bible never said we are carnal and spiritual at the same time, to say so means you call the Bible and God a liar.
Romans 8 proves your statements are wrong.
I only get agitated when someone is saying things that are completely at odds with God's Word. Sorry buddy, but the fact is you are in complete error and sadly also are in complete denial.
You engaged me alright, because you say things that are not even Biblical and when called out, then hide under Gee wally, I went to Bible college and I have been a Christian fer 38 years.
You are a carnal babe and continue to persist in saying things that go against the word of God. All your statements contradict the very nature of God.
R
If they only way that eternal life could be made attainable was to allow suffering, would it be worth it?
R
Ok let me dumb this down so you get it.
The Bible never said we are carnal and spiritual at the same time, to say so means you call the Bible and God a liar.
Romans 8 proves your statements are wrong.
I only get agitated when someone is saying things that are completely at odds with God's Word. Sorry buddy, but the fact is you are in complete error and sadly also are in complete denial.
You engaged me alright, because you say things that are not even Biblical and when called out, then hide under Gee wally, I went to Bible college and I have been a Christian fer 38 years.
You are a carnal babe and continue to persist in saying things that go against the word of God. All your statements contradict the very nature of God.
The Bible never said we are carnal and spiritual at the same time, to say so means you call the Bible and God a liar.
Romans 8 proves your statements are wrong.
I only get agitated when someone is saying things that are completely at odds with God's Word. Sorry buddy, but the fact is you are in complete error and sadly also are in complete denial.
You engaged me alright, because you say things that are not even Biblical and when called out, then hide under Gee wally, I went to Bible college and I have been a Christian fer 38 years.
You are a carnal babe and continue to persist in saying things that go against the word of God. All your statements contradict the very nature of God.
T
i think you need to calm down and rethink what you are doing. responding in anger shows being a babe in christ far more than even lack of understanding which is not the case merely someone who is curious and wants to understand something that most dont question. that kind of mind is one that can discover biblical secrets and understanding
I am only answering with what the Bible says and he does not like it, so he is painting me with the brush of anger, and attack...it's a classic defense and divert employed when someone gives the correct Biblical answer, yet the person it is aimed at, does not like the answer, because they want it their way.
His latest reply: Yikes! Did you run out of the fruit of the Spirit or what? is typical of sheep like him, because these kind of sheep want to be petted for their beliefs, even though they run completely contrary to what Scripture tells them. They engage in tactics designed to attack the message and the messenger and then attempt to convince young believers that the messenger is angry , lost their fruit of the Spirit and evil and hostile. I have encountered this and various levels all through the body of Christ.
Reaper is saved and a Bible college graduate and that good, nothing wrong with that, yet his questions are leading and he already knows the answer he wants, furthermore his questions show at best, a very shallow understanding of God's very nature and his word.
I commented on some things from the Bible as he asked respondents to do and he did not like the answers, the more the refuted my answers the more he showed he has no understanding of even basic Biblical principals and continued toi argue that we can be carnal and spiritual, which the Bible clearly teaches you cannot be.
Proverbs 27.23 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds.
Some of us have been called to watch the flocks of sheep and take joy in taking care of our herds, this includes keeping people, out of Biblical error, no matter what their secular & Christian education, how long they have been saved and regardless of how bad they attack, rebate, hurt, offend or curse you.
You will learn through your Spiritual walk, that agape love, is a perfect love that seeks no expectation of ANY kind of return and is a love that gives people like reaper what they need, not want they want. I am not angry, but anyone who blatantly says anything against the word of God and attempts to blur the lines as reaper is, will get an earful. It's not out of anger, it's out of Love and that young man is something you will learn to discern...
PS: Please Don't fall for this trap in your church and go correct your pastor or another elder of your church. You could really get into trouble.
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T
Yikes! Did you run out of the fruit of the Spirit or what? I simply gave you some background to counter your assertion that I am immature in the faith. Your assertion that what I am saying is at odds with God's word is in error. You seem to have some kind of paradigm regarding your definition of spirituality and carnality and if someone rocks that paradigm you get a bit unhinged. For an example of the spirit nature and the sin/carnal nature co-existing read Paul's description of it in the last part of Romans 7. If our carnality is not existing along side our spirit nature, why is it necessary to take up our cross daily and follow Him? If our carnal nature is not still active how can we be tempted and be disobedient? Unless you have achieved a level of spiritual actualization in which you no longer sin, then your spirit nature exists and is in conflict with your sin nature on a daily basis. The imperfect mind can contemplate and grasp spiritual concepts. Maybe not as deeply or with as much clarity, but it can. Hope you have a better day tomorrow.
I have nothing against you, your interpretation is wrong, you are correct carnality and spirituality is mentioned side by side in the Bible.
That said, the Bible says we are to renew our minds and to Walk in the Spirit and not be ruled by ANY form of carnality.
I have nothing against you personally, I am not angry, not lost any Fruit of the Spirit, you are saved and have had Bible College, those are good things. Yet your questions are not questions as much as an attempt to discredit what the Bible says.
I take you task and say the things I do, because you need to come to full age, below is an example:
YOU STATED:
If our carnal nature is not still active how can we be tempted and be disobedient? Unless you have achieved a level of spiritual actualization in which you no longer sin, then your spirit nature exists and is in conflict with your sin nature on a daily basis.
This proves you have a a very shallow grasp of the sin nature versus the righteous nature. Of course my carnal nature is still active, yet I have put certain things of that carnal nature under the blood and renewed my mind and conformed that part of my carnal nature to the image of Christ and guess what?
I am not beset by those sins anymore. In fact, I don't even commit those sins anymore, SIN is not a behavior it is a CHOICE!
They don't hold me in bondage, I don't think about those things anymore,I AM FREE because who the SON set FREE is FREE indeed!
When we were translated from the powers of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son, we GOT our CHOICE back. You only SIN, because you CHOOSE to SIN! YOU are only ruled by your carnal man, because you CHOOSE to let the carnal man rule.
Your spirit man is never in conflict with your sin nature, because you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! [See 2 cor 5.21, heck check out all of 2 cor 5!]
The single largest heresy in the church, both protestant and catholic, today is the preaching and teaching that you will never, ever be able to have power over SIN and that SIN has you in bondage and you will never be able to live without it and you will always SIN. This is true to a small extent, Jesus was the only one perfect and never sinned, yet he was touched by our infirmities, he was surrounded by SIN, but never touched by it. The Bible teaches us completely different. We are righteous and were given our choice back.
The other thing the church universal never teaches is the SIN cycle found in James 1.12-18. This squarely places the choice to sin and be carnal on us.
Picking up our cross is often interpreted in many different ways, this is what I see in it.
Picking up our cross is not about the battle between our spiritual man and our carnal man.
Above all, it is about laying our will down, through humility and being obedient to the Father's will for our life. Just as Christ was humbled himself and was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. The take away here is not about crucifying our sin nature day after day, to me that is in violation of Heb 6.6, that by doing that, we crucify to ourselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. This is why I never got behind those who teach/preach that picking up your cross is crucifying our sin nature everyday
SO what does this mean, taking up your cross daily? To answer that we should maybe ask ourselves what the cross was for Jesus. That is often overlooked when this subject is taught or preached. Above all else the cross for Jesus was his sole divine destiny. That is his whole destiny.
SO knowing that what did he mean, that we should pick up our cross daily and follow him?
The Bible teaches that weere are to be like Jesus, and it also teache sus that we are all called to serve him, the Minsitry buck does not stop with the pastor, deacons and Sunday school teacher, the Bible says everyone born again is a minister of reconciliation. You may not be called to full time ministry, but you are a minister, youa re the light of the world, the salt of the earth, when you are born again and let your spirit man rule over you, instead of the carnal man you are called to serve him.
Simply put, we all have a divine destny that God has chosen for us, Jesus' divine destiny was the cross, so I believe Jesus was telling us that if we love him, and are his disciples we are to pick up the cross of our divine destiny and attach ourselves to it and be everything God has called us to be.
In this season of my spiritual life I am called to preach to delivrnace to the captives in my prison ministry, You could not talk me off this cross no matter how much you tried. For this season my wife and I are prison ministers, and we will not come down off that cross.
You see, we have Christians that have a divine purpose, but come down off their cross, because it's too hard or they think only their pastor, deacon or teacher are called.
Jesus was telling us, pick up your corss of divine destiny and complete it and overcome as I did with my destiny, which WAS the Cross.
This is why it seems like I am beating you up and being angry, but I am not, angry, beating you up, yes LOL! My desire is to see you become everything God has called you to be and be free from error.
The canral man adn spiritual man are cosntantly at war agaisnt each other and the soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect] is stuck in the middle. Only one man can rule you, the carnal or the spiritual and whichever you let reign will control your soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect].
This is hwy what you are saying is wrong and at odds with the Bible, this is how a I defend the faith, not by slamming you, but forcing you to go deeper, even if it seems that I am angry, frustrated or agitated. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
Ezekiel 47 talks about waters you can swim in...you cannot swim in waters over your head until you wade in the ankle, then the thigh high waters.
Blessings buddy!
This is not anger heartsearcher, I am not mad at anyone or reaper and he is not lacking in understanding, he knows exactly what he is doing. He is attmepting to ask questions to pet his need to be intellectual instead of spiritual. He is seeking to validate himself that it is perfectly acceptable to be carnal an spiritual.
I am only answering with what the Bible says and he does not like it, so he is painting me with the brush of anger, and attack...it's a classic defense and divert employed when someone gives the correct Biblical answer, yet the person it is aimed at, does not like the answer, because they want it their way.
His latest reply: Yikes! Did you run out of the fruit of the Spirit or what? is typical of sheep like him, because these kind of sheep want to be petted for their beliefs, even though they run completely contrary to what Scripture tells them. They engage in tactics designed to attack the message and the messenger and then attempt to convince young believers that the messenger is angry , lost their fruit of the Spirit and evil and hostile. I have encountered this and various levels all through the body of Christ.
Reaper is saved and a Bible college graduate and that good, nothing wrong with that, yet his questions are leading and he already knows the answer he wants, furthermore his questions show at best, a very shallow understanding of God's very nature and his word.
I commented on some things from the Bible as he asked respondents to do and he did not like the answers, the more the refuted my answers the more he showed he has no understanding of even basic Biblical principals and continued toi argue that we can be carnal and spiritual, which the Bible clearly teaches you cannot be.
Proverbs 27.23 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds.
Some of us have been called to watch the flocks of sheep and take joy in taking care of our herds, this includes keeping people, out of Biblical error, no matter what their secular & Christian education, how long they have been saved and regardless of how bad they attack, rebate, hurt, offend or curse you.
You will learn through your Spiritual walk, that agape love, is a perfect love that seeks no expectation of ANY kind of return and is a love that gives people like reaper what they need, not want they want. I am not angry, but anyone who blatantly says anything against the word of God and attempts to blur the lines as reaper is, will get an earful. It's not out of anger, it's out of Love and that young man is something you will learn to discern...
PS: Please Don't fall for this trap in your church and go correct your pastor or another elder of your church. You could really get into trouble.
I am only answering with what the Bible says and he does not like it, so he is painting me with the brush of anger, and attack...it's a classic defense and divert employed when someone gives the correct Biblical answer, yet the person it is aimed at, does not like the answer, because they want it their way.
His latest reply: Yikes! Did you run out of the fruit of the Spirit or what? is typical of sheep like him, because these kind of sheep want to be petted for their beliefs, even though they run completely contrary to what Scripture tells them. They engage in tactics designed to attack the message and the messenger and then attempt to convince young believers that the messenger is angry , lost their fruit of the Spirit and evil and hostile. I have encountered this and various levels all through the body of Christ.
Reaper is saved and a Bible college graduate and that good, nothing wrong with that, yet his questions are leading and he already knows the answer he wants, furthermore his questions show at best, a very shallow understanding of God's very nature and his word.
I commented on some things from the Bible as he asked respondents to do and he did not like the answers, the more the refuted my answers the more he showed he has no understanding of even basic Biblical principals and continued toi argue that we can be carnal and spiritual, which the Bible clearly teaches you cannot be.
Proverbs 27.23 says:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds.
Some of us have been called to watch the flocks of sheep and take joy in taking care of our herds, this includes keeping people, out of Biblical error, no matter what their secular & Christian education, how long they have been saved and regardless of how bad they attack, rebate, hurt, offend or curse you.
You will learn through your Spiritual walk, that agape love, is a perfect love that seeks no expectation of ANY kind of return and is a love that gives people like reaper what they need, not want they want. I am not angry, but anyone who blatantly says anything against the word of God and attempts to blur the lines as reaper is, will get an earful. It's not out of anger, it's out of Love and that young man is something you will learn to discern...
PS: Please Don't fall for this trap in your church and go correct your pastor or another elder of your church. You could really get into trouble.
T
then perhaps next time respond a bit more lovingly because while u say u didnt do it out of anger your use of words you used didnt support it
Love is not a syrupy, gloppy puddle of mush. You will come to learn you can rebuke someone and it can cause intense fellowship and appear to be anger, and it is done in complete love. A wise man receives a rebuke, a fool calls it harsh.
While this is a silly internet chat board, and you are not under my authority in the real or cyber, I feel led and the need to impart other wisdom into you.
You should guard yourself in the physical from ever, ever attempting to do this in your church. You may see your pastor engage in something like this, but you simply don't have the spiritual authority or maturity to even think about doing it. You are never, ever to rebuke an elder in the real, look it up young Timothy, it's Bible and not me.
You will perceive this to be anger and pride but it's not, I could really care less what you thought about the way you perceived me treating reaper. Neither will your pastor if you decided to confront him for perceiving him to be to harsh with someone, which is in error and needs correction.
Some pastors overlook a freshly saved babe like yourself, popping off like you did here on a silly internet hcatboard. I am one of those, that would likely pull you aside at instruct you more perfect int he ways of the Lord and kingdom, without rebuke.
There are other Pastors, that would eat your lunch if you ever did this in the real. In all your getting, get understanding, learn how the kingdom operates and proper church authority and the chain of command. To some pastors you would come across as totally rebellious and unwilling to be teachable and your will is not the will of the Father's and that is not where a young newly saved babe like you, wants to be marked as.
I want you to understand I could care less about what you did here on this chat board, I am not any kind of authority over you, period!
I will teach you and caution you to be tempered and wise in real life. The other church leadership are not tolerant of anyone that decides to correct/rebuke the pastor. The deacons adn other pastoral staff, might not be as loving towards you, attmepting to tell their shepherd to cool it and lay off, especially if it turns out the pastor was spekaing into a persons life, through correction.
It simply is not for you to interfere with.
R
Reaper,
I have nothing against you, your interpretation is wrong, you are correct carnality and spirituality is mentioned side by side in the Bible.
That said, the Bible says we are to renew our minds and to Walk in the Spirit and not be ruled by ANY form of carnality.
I have nothing against you personally, I am not angry, not lost any Fruit of the Spirit, you are saved and have had Bible College, those are good things. Yet your questions are not questions as much as an attempt to discredit what the Bible says.
I take you task and say the things I do, because you need to come to full age, below is an example:
YOU STATED:
If our carnal nature is not still active how can we be tempted and be disobedient? Unless you have achieved a level of spiritual actualization in which you no longer sin, then your spirit nature exists and is in conflict with your sin nature on a daily basis.
This proves you have a a very shallow grasp of the sin nature versus the righteous nature. Of course my carnal nature is still active, yet I have put certain things of that carnal nature under the blood and renewed my mind and conformed that part of my carnal nature to the image of Christ and guess what?
I am not beset by those sins anymore. In fact, I don't even commit those sins anymore, SIN is not a behavior it is a CHOICE!
They don't hold me in bondage, I don't think about those things anymore,I AM FREE because who the SON set FREE is FREE indeed!
When we were translated from the powers of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son, we GOT our CHOICE back. You only SIN, because you CHOOSE to SIN! YOU are only ruled by your carnal man, because you CHOOSE to let the carnal man rule.
Your spirit man is never in conflict with your sin nature, because you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! [See 2 cor 5.21, heck check out all of 2 cor 5!]
The single largest heresy in the church, both protestant and catholic, today is the preaching and teaching that you will never, ever be able to have power over SIN and that SIN has you in bondage and you will never be able to live without it and you will always SIN. This is true to a small extent, Jesus was the only one perfect and never sinned, yet he was touched by our infirmities, he was surrounded by SIN, but never touched by it. The Bible teaches us completely different. We are righteous and were given our choice back.
The other thing the church universal never teaches is the SIN cycle found in James 1.12-18. This squarely places the choice to sin and be carnal on us.
Picking up our cross is often interpreted in many different ways, this is what I see in it.
Picking up our cross is not about the battle between our spiritual man and our carnal man.
Above all, it is about laying our will down, through humility and being obedient to the Father's will for our life. Just as Christ was humbled himself and was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. The take away here is not about crucifying our sin nature day after day, to me that is in violation of Heb 6.6, that by doing that, we crucify to ourselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. This is why I never got behind those who teach/preach that picking up your cross is crucifying our sin nature everyday
SO what does this mean, taking up your cross daily? To answer that we should maybe ask ourselves what the cross was for Jesus. That is often overlooked when this subject is taught or preached. Above all else the cross for Jesus was his sole divine destiny. That is his whole destiny.
SO knowing that what did he mean, that we should pick up our cross daily and follow him?
The Bible teaches that weere are to be like Jesus, and it also teache sus that we are all called to serve him, the Minsitry buck does not stop with the pastor, deacons and Sunday school teacher, the Bible says everyone born again is a minister of reconciliation. You may not be called to full time ministry, but you are a minister, youa re the light of the world, the salt of the earth, when you are born again and let your spirit man rule over you, instead of the carnal man you are called to serve him.
Simply put, we all have a divine destny that God has chosen for us, Jesus' divine destiny was the cross, so I believe Jesus was telling us that if we love him, and are his disciples we are to pick up the cross of our divine destiny and attach ourselves to it and be everything God has called us to be.
In this season of my spiritual life I am called to preach to delivrnace to the captives in my prison ministry, You could not talk me off this cross no matter how much you tried. For this season my wife and I are prison ministers, and we will not come down off that cross.
You see, we have Christians that have a divine purpose, but come down off their cross, because it's too hard or they think only their pastor, deacon or teacher are called.
Jesus was telling us, pick up your corss of divine destiny and complete it and overcome as I did with my destiny, which WAS the Cross.
This is why it seems like I am beating you up and being angry, but I am not, angry, beating you up, yes LOL! My desire is to see you become everything God has called you to be and be free from error.
The canral man adn spiritual man are cosntantly at war agaisnt each other and the soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect] is stuck in the middle. Only one man can rule you, the carnal or the spiritual and whichever you let reign will control your soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect].
This is hwy what you are saying is wrong and at odds with the Bible, this is how a I defend the faith, not by slamming you, but forcing you to go deeper, even if it seems that I am angry, frustrated or agitated. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
Ezekiel 47 talks about waters you can swim in...you cannot swim in waters over your head until you wade in the ankle, then the thigh high waters.
Blessings buddy!
I have nothing against you, your interpretation is wrong, you are correct carnality and spirituality is mentioned side by side in the Bible.
That said, the Bible says we are to renew our minds and to Walk in the Spirit and not be ruled by ANY form of carnality.
I have nothing against you personally, I am not angry, not lost any Fruit of the Spirit, you are saved and have had Bible College, those are good things. Yet your questions are not questions as much as an attempt to discredit what the Bible says.
I take you task and say the things I do, because you need to come to full age, below is an example:
YOU STATED:
If our carnal nature is not still active how can we be tempted and be disobedient? Unless you have achieved a level of spiritual actualization in which you no longer sin, then your spirit nature exists and is in conflict with your sin nature on a daily basis.
This proves you have a a very shallow grasp of the sin nature versus the righteous nature. Of course my carnal nature is still active, yet I have put certain things of that carnal nature under the blood and renewed my mind and conformed that part of my carnal nature to the image of Christ and guess what?
I am not beset by those sins anymore. In fact, I don't even commit those sins anymore, SIN is not a behavior it is a CHOICE!
They don't hold me in bondage, I don't think about those things anymore,I AM FREE because who the SON set FREE is FREE indeed!
When we were translated from the powers of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son, we GOT our CHOICE back. You only SIN, because you CHOOSE to SIN! YOU are only ruled by your carnal man, because you CHOOSE to let the carnal man rule.
Your spirit man is never in conflict with your sin nature, because you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! [See 2 cor 5.21, heck check out all of 2 cor 5!]
The single largest heresy in the church, both protestant and catholic, today is the preaching and teaching that you will never, ever be able to have power over SIN and that SIN has you in bondage and you will never be able to live without it and you will always SIN. This is true to a small extent, Jesus was the only one perfect and never sinned, yet he was touched by our infirmities, he was surrounded by SIN, but never touched by it. The Bible teaches us completely different. We are righteous and were given our choice back.
The other thing the church universal never teaches is the SIN cycle found in James 1.12-18. This squarely places the choice to sin and be carnal on us.
Picking up our cross is often interpreted in many different ways, this is what I see in it.
Picking up our cross is not about the battle between our spiritual man and our carnal man.
Above all, it is about laying our will down, through humility and being obedient to the Father's will for our life. Just as Christ was humbled himself and was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. The take away here is not about crucifying our sin nature day after day, to me that is in violation of Heb 6.6, that by doing that, we crucify to ourselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. This is why I never got behind those who teach/preach that picking up your cross is crucifying our sin nature everyday
SO what does this mean, taking up your cross daily? To answer that we should maybe ask ourselves what the cross was for Jesus. That is often overlooked when this subject is taught or preached. Above all else the cross for Jesus was his sole divine destiny. That is his whole destiny.
SO knowing that what did he mean, that we should pick up our cross daily and follow him?
The Bible teaches that weere are to be like Jesus, and it also teache sus that we are all called to serve him, the Minsitry buck does not stop with the pastor, deacons and Sunday school teacher, the Bible says everyone born again is a minister of reconciliation. You may not be called to full time ministry, but you are a minister, youa re the light of the world, the salt of the earth, when you are born again and let your spirit man rule over you, instead of the carnal man you are called to serve him.
Simply put, we all have a divine destny that God has chosen for us, Jesus' divine destiny was the cross, so I believe Jesus was telling us that if we love him, and are his disciples we are to pick up the cross of our divine destiny and attach ourselves to it and be everything God has called us to be.
In this season of my spiritual life I am called to preach to delivrnace to the captives in my prison ministry, You could not talk me off this cross no matter how much you tried. For this season my wife and I are prison ministers, and we will not come down off that cross.
You see, we have Christians that have a divine purpose, but come down off their cross, because it's too hard or they think only their pastor, deacon or teacher are called.
Jesus was telling us, pick up your corss of divine destiny and complete it and overcome as I did with my destiny, which WAS the Cross.
This is why it seems like I am beating you up and being angry, but I am not, angry, beating you up, yes LOL! My desire is to see you become everything God has called you to be and be free from error.
The canral man adn spiritual man are cosntantly at war agaisnt each other and the soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect] is stuck in the middle. Only one man can rule you, the carnal or the spiritual and whichever you let reign will control your soul[mind will, emotions, passions, creativity, experiences, intellect].
This is hwy what you are saying is wrong and at odds with the Bible, this is how a I defend the faith, not by slamming you, but forcing you to go deeper, even if it seems that I am angry, frustrated or agitated. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
Ezekiel 47 talks about waters you can swim in...you cannot swim in waters over your head until you wade in the ankle, then the thigh high waters.
Blessings buddy!
T
I have known guys like you in the church. You fancy yourself a defender of the faith and therefore you feel justified in your methods and believe your interpretation/understanding of Scripture is the final authority. Not only do you not see a problem with your personal attacks or condescending approach, but actually believe you owe it to people in the name of ensuring pure doctrine. You cannot be taught and you cannot afford to be wrong or even allow for the possibility that you may not have a firm grasp on all the mysteries of God. In an internet exchange, people can choose to engage with you or not. But in a church guys like you are poison and often attack the pastor and won't think twice about splitting a church because, your cause is pure and your understanding unrivaled. I came here with a couple of questions desiring to get feedback from others about what many would consider a complex issue. But since you don't consider it complex and have settled on your perspective, you accuse me of having some kind of preconceived agenda. Because I dared to explore these issues beyond the "box" of traditional orthodoxy you brand me immature, self-seeking and distorting Scripture/doctrine. Your dissertation above about your experiences with the carnal nature and overcoming sin and not returning to that sin again made me think you were about to proclaim yourself without sin. If you were able to conquer certain sins and not return to them, I wonder how close you are to conquering all sins and declaring yourself without sin? You aren't taking me to task with the rod because I have proclaimed any heresy, but because it doesn't fit neatly with your dogma. You aren't a modern day John the Baptist or Martin Luther... you are just a man who has studied Scripture and settled on what you believe to be the correct interpretation of certain complex topics. Anyone who puts forth a different interpretation or even the possibility of a different interpretation is met with your self-righteous admonishment as though you have anointed and given that position and authority. You have not been. You have no right, authority or credibility to be condescending or judgmental about someone's motives or maturity. Your claims about conquering and overcoming sin and not returning to it makes me wonder if you are referring to a specific type of sin like addiction, criminal activity or sexual immorality. Yes, we choose to sin, however, when you consider the various types of sin, both of omission and co-mission, those exist in our behaviors, attitudes and minds. You sin every day in some manner. You are a son of Adam as much as you are a new creature in Christ. The two elements do co-exist and are at war with each other. Before you accepted Christ you were strictly Adam's son. Your acceptance of Christ made you holy and blameless before God, but did not eradicate your sin nature. It's there and it seeks to war with you in your members. The Spirit nature is so much more powerful, but requires our daily surrender to keep the sin nature tapped down. You may have received freedom from certain sins in your life, but there are others and to deny their presence makes you vulnerable to them. God desires a humble and contrite heart, not an arrogant or grandiose heart. You are simply a guy who is on a journey just like everyone else. You are confident in your positions now.. your interpretations, but life sometimes has a way of taking us down different roads which create different perspectives and causes us to ask different questions. Don't pretend to know the motives of another or think you have been empowered to be a defender and keeper of the faith to the extent you put yourself above others. In the same way you feel justified in bringing the rod to those whom you believe are deserving, I hope you will receive this in the spirit in which it is intended.
You will either be ruled by your carnal man or your spirit man and whoever wins that wrestling match, will control the soul.
For the record, it was your questions, answers and musings, that gave away your motives and your agenda.
Be Blessed brother
W
Yes.. if I had to walk across broken glass each morning in order to secure my place in eternity I would do it. But in the context of my original post, suffering is the outcome of the plan I am grappling with. The issue of suffering equating with salvation is complicated by the fact that a majority of people wouldn't even know they were supposed to be suffering in order to be saved. The correlation would need to be shared and for a majority of people they will live and die and never hear the Gospel or any other plan by which they might be saved related to suffering or not.[/QUOTE I think your questioning is good. I have never personally heard a good real explanation for suffering and I know all the ones usually debated but I don't know a satisfactory one myself. I started thinking the other mourning about it . God just kind of guided my mind with thoughts leading to more thoughts. Firstly why good and evil then in nature how suffering gives birth to new life.Then I thought about justice and judgement,and eternal suffering about Jesus suffering and our call to long suffering and suffering for the gospels sake,then how cruel people and nations make others suffer.About sin entering the world God made good ect. all which are true but don't seem to get at the bottom of it all.thenthe question came to me did God suffer yes i thought ,in jesus. But then I wonder if God suffer before any thing was created even Satan and the angels. Then I realized God is love. his nature is love he has to walk and do love he cannot do any thing else, he is bound to it,or he would fail from being God. I started thinking about the God head being alone. Would it be love to know eternal joy,peace happiness ect. and not create other to share the opportunity with. I do not think so, I think that would be selfish,and God having all power could do this, to make others like him ,his children,in his image. But how could he make these true to nature children without giving them a choice to choose between good and evil ,to reject him or love him?Even if they had free will but nothing to choose between would still make them just robots.I think eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was one of the first actions in Gen. and I think right all along in Gods plan for mankind.the first commandment was thou shalt not eat of the tree. Which they broke , which spawned sin and death, and shewed us what the wages of sin were . Isn't there some scripture that says "he frameth mischief by a law"? And how the law of sin and death led us to Christ? And was our schoolmaster? This is why I ask the ? was suffering worth it for salvation? I think that is the only way a perfect God could do it and still give free will. Not just christian suffering but all the suffering thats in the world, from sinners and evil ,from greed and murder and such. so thats kinda my half complete answer . I'm sure there is much more to it . At least some thing to think about.
R
Yes.. if I had to walk across broken glass each morning in order to secure my place in eternity I would do it. But in the context of my original post, suffering is the outcome of the plan I am grappling with. The issue of suffering equating with salvation is complicated by the fact that a majority of people wouldn't even know they were supposed to be suffering in order to be saved. The correlation would need to be shared and for a majority of people they will live and die and never hear the Gospel or any other plan by which they might be saved related to suffering or not.[/QUOTE
But then I wonder if God suffer before any thing was created even Satan and the angels. Then I realized God is love. his nature is love he has to walk and do love he cannot do any thing else, he is bound to it,or he would fail from being God. I started thinking about the God head being alone. Would it be love to know eternal joy,peace happiness ect. and not create other to share the opportunity with. I do not think so, I think that would be selfish,and God having all power could do this, to make others like him ,his children,in his image.
Thank you for your response. It is an interesting perspective. Almost as though God was compelled to create man because of His desire to share the glory and goodness of heaven. If this is true, He must have calculated the cost and decided it would be worth it. The ability to share and have some % of mankind be with him through eternity. Is it possible that He between all the creatures of heaven and those He created on Earth that man was the only creature He could create who would be like Him, yet subject to Him. Satan/Lucifer also had free will, but did not have to live by faith and was not made in God's image. Maybe there were no other creative equations left except man even though it would result in the suffering and destruction which occurred from the Fall to the present. You are suggesting that He had no other alternative if He wanted to share paradise with a creature who was empowered to think, choose and live by faith. Taking this a step further than He has, in essence, been collecting remnants from each generation since the beginning. Those remnants would, in the end, comprise the totality of the "sheep". It is upon those sheep that He will confer His pouring out of paradise. It is not about mankind passing some excruciating torture test, but God's desire to seat faithful man above even the angels in heaven. If accurate, this helps to explain why He continued with man even after Adam, Cain and Abel, the flood and all the cyclical dysfunction of the OT. He really had no choice if He wanted to share what we can't comprehend. This leads to many other questions and is the kind of thought provoking perspective I had hoped to run across. Thank you for your ideas and reflections. I quickly go to a consideration of who exactly makes up the sheep and goats? The most obvious answer is the faithful and the unfaithful... believers vs. non-believers. But within both groups are there people who God extends grace to who escape as though through the fire? Those who were preached to between the crucifixion and resurrection? Those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Thank you for your response. I think it is good to consider these things.
But then I wonder if God suffer before any thing was created even Satan and the angels. Then I realized God is love. his nature is love he has to walk and do love he cannot do any thing else, he is bound to it,or he would fail from being God. I started thinking about the God head being alone. Would it be love to know eternal joy,peace happiness ect. and not create other to share the opportunity with. I do not think so, I think that would be selfish,and God having all power could do this, to make others like him ,his children,in his image.
Thank you for your response. It is an interesting perspective. Almost as though God was compelled to create man because of His desire to share the glory and goodness of heaven. If this is true, He must have calculated the cost and decided it would be worth it. The ability to share and have some % of mankind be with him through eternity. Is it possible that He between all the creatures of heaven and those He created on Earth that man was the only creature He could create who would be like Him, yet subject to Him. Satan/Lucifer also had free will, but did not have to live by faith and was not made in God's image. Maybe there were no other creative equations left except man even though it would result in the suffering and destruction which occurred from the Fall to the present. You are suggesting that He had no other alternative if He wanted to share paradise with a creature who was empowered to think, choose and live by faith. Taking this a step further than He has, in essence, been collecting remnants from each generation since the beginning. Those remnants would, in the end, comprise the totality of the "sheep". It is upon those sheep that He will confer His pouring out of paradise. It is not about mankind passing some excruciating torture test, but God's desire to seat faithful man above even the angels in heaven. If accurate, this helps to explain why He continued with man even after Adam, Cain and Abel, the flood and all the cyclical dysfunction of the OT. He really had no choice if He wanted to share what we can't comprehend. This leads to many other questions and is the kind of thought provoking perspective I had hoped to run across. Thank you for your ideas and reflections. I quickly go to a consideration of who exactly makes up the sheep and goats? The most obvious answer is the faithful and the unfaithful... believers vs. non-believers. But within both groups are there people who God extends grace to who escape as though through the fire? Those who were preached to between the crucifixion and resurrection? Those who never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Thank you for your response. I think it is good to consider these things.