THE GRACE OF GOD

[SeaBass]

Oh, Wow..!

2 Cor 6:1
Gal 5:4

Grace is conditionally received and one can therefore conditionally fall from it.

No context says grace is UNconditionally received therefore one UNconditionally always has it and never fall from it.


Mailmandan admits grace is conditionally received by faith. Yet will Mailmandan admit that since one receives grace CONDITIONALLY by faith that also means one can fall from that grace if he quits having faith? No, so he has inconsistencies. Some of those in Galatia were removed from the faith of the gospel (Gal 1:6f) and were fallen (past tense) for they no longer had that faith required to access grace, Rom 5:2.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

A FREE GIFT........ is a gift that is not earned,.......no way around it.......

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence,so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 10:3,4
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Romans 4:5
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Romans 4:5
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[video=youtube_share;1yjUCDXnxjo]http://youtu.be/1yjUCDXnxjo[/video]
​

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 4:5
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In context: Romans 4:4-5

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jn 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

Some Jews that became Christians still would cling to the OT law in some way and in Rom 4 Paul was proving to the Jewish Christians in Rome,

1) that the OT law does not justify but only allowed for perfect, flawless law-keeping where one's reward would then be of merit and not of grace, verse 3,4

2) circumcision is not necessary to be saved, verses 9-11.

Paul used Abraham as an example of one who did NOT work to keep the law perfectly so he could merit his reward but instead had an obedient faith and Paul also used Abraham as an example of one reckoned righteous is uncircumcision.

Which brings us to Rom 4:12:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Paul is saying the true descendants of Abraham are those who share in the same OBEDIENT faith as Abraham, those "who also walk in the steps of our father Abraham". Paul is making a contrast between an obedient faith/those that "walk" as Abraham to perfect law-keeping.

The word verb "walk" has to to with obedience, Abraham did not have a workless, dead faith only, thereby one must WALK in the steps of faith as Abraham to be a true descendant of Abraham.

Coffman Commentary (in blue) makes an interesting comment on the word 'walk':

Who also walk after the steps of that faith of our father Abraham ... These words mean "who have an obedient faith like Abraham." Abrahamic faith was not any such thing as faith ONLY, but it was a faith that walked after God's commandments, as pointed out under Romans 4:3; and Gentiles (or others) who would participate in the promise of salvation God gave through Abraham are here identified as those who "walk" in the steps of that faith, which is a way of saying they must have an obedient faith as did Abraham. Some of the so-called translations and modern speech renditions of the New Testament have butchered this verse by eliminating all reference to obedience:
For Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised (The Living Word New Testament, paraphrased).

For those who have the faith of Abraham (NEB).

Because they live the same life of faith (The New Testament in Today's English).

The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone; and the conviction persists that this fact influenced some of the so-called translations. It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified.


At least 3 "translations" went so far as to avoid using the word "walk" with one even perverting the text to "Abraham found favor with God by faith alone". The same perversion that takes place here in changing to the text to "faith only" is the same that takes place in Rom 4:5 in adding the word "alone" to the verse. Abraham did not "believe only" in verse 5 no more than he had "faith only" in verse 12.

 

[SeaBass]

A FREE GIFT........ is a gift that is not earned,.......no way around it.......

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence,so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 10:3,4
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Free gifts can come with conditions and God has attached conditions to his free gift of grace. One is not earning grace by meeting those conditions he is just meeting the conditions and nothing more.

Rom 11:29 is NOT say God's grace is freely given without the condition of repentance for that would contradict verses as Lk 13:3,5 and Acts 2:38 that require repentance in order for one to be saved.

In verses 28,29 the unbelieving Jews are still beloved by God for the sake of their fathers, Abraham Issac and Jacob. Throughout the OT God promised the Jews salvation through the Messiah when He came. He came and most Jews rejected Him, yet God will not change or repent and take that salvation away from them but leave that door of salvation open for them, the offer still stands even though they did not believe.

 

[Willie-T]

Sometimes people need help understanding what a highly abused and misused word really means......

Romans 11:29GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

29 God never changes his mind when he gives gifts or when he calls someone.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Sometimes people need help understanding what a highly abused and misused word really means......

Romans 11:29GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

29 God never changes his mind when he gives gifts or when he calls someone.

"are without repentance; that is, they are immutable and unalterable"....... It helps when one actually reads the entire post to ascertain what is being said before making a comment as well. That is why the verse was posted along with others stating God's unmerited favor of grace is a free gift that is unearned and can't be revoked. Repentance is necessary as clearly seen in the NT. That is NOT what was implied here in my post.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

"are without repentance; that is, they are immutable and unalterable"....... It helps when one actually reads the entire post to ascertain what is being said before making a comment as well. That is why the verse was posted along with others stating God's unmerited favor of grace is a free gift that is unearned and can't be revoked. Repentance is necessary as clearly seen in the NT. That is NOT what was implied here in my post.

Not implying repentance is not necessary.......sorry if you misunderstood

 

[Willie-T]

Not implying repentance is not necessary.......sorry if you misunderstood

I'm suspecting you're jumping the gun a little. I'm totally with you. Everything you have said is very plain. Well, at least to me. I constantly bang my head against a stone wall trying to get people to understand that repentance doesn't mean moaning, and feeling sad, and wailing about how rotten you are.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I'm suspecting you're jumping the gun a little. I'm totally with you. Everything you have said is very plain. Well, at least to me. I constantly bang my head against a stone wall trying to get people to understand that repentance doesn't mean moaning, and feeling sad, and wailing about how rotten you are.

Thanks for the clarity brother Willie-T, yeah i jumped the gun a little there, woe is me, my apologizes friend and your correction and words are appreciated. i don't understand how the simplicity of Christ paying for our sins completely confounds so many either. Maybe it's to hard for some of us sinful men to embrace the magnitude of God's great love and mercy towards us. But like it's written who believed our report.......and again "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

 

[Willie-T]

No problem.. I'm sure it won't be too long till we run across something we truly don't see eye-to-eye on. LOL

 

[mailmandan]

It has been show multiple times on this forum that the "not of works" in Eph 2:9 does not exclude ALL works for that creates contradictions within the bible, even within the immediate context for it cannot exclude the good works Christian have been before ordained to do in verse 10 or the obedient works of James 2:24; Rom 6:16-18.

I dedicated an entire thread on Rom 4:4,5 showing how it does not teach "faith only", the word "only" is not even in the text but is added to the text perverting the text:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/96618-context-romans-4-4-5-a.html

I have already thoroughly refuted your arguments in that same thread in post #24 and other multiple posts. Romans 4:4-5 clearly teaches - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. What is the only word that you see connected with "is accounted for righteousness?" Answer - faith. Did Paul say his faith and works are accounted for righteousness? NO! Who is adding to and perverting the text? YOU and it's all because of your misunderstanding of what James means by "faith only" - empty profession of faith/dead faith/claims to have faith but has no works. That kind of faith only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. Where is the evidence that faith is genuine and is alive in Christ? (Ephesians 2:5-10). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. Simple!

When will you finally realize and accept that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine saving faith in Christ (James 2:14-24). It's not hard to understand, it's just hard for you to ACCEPT because of your indoctrination and unbelief. *You are not fooling any genuine believers on this forum, but only those who like you, trust in their works for salvation AND NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[mailmandan]

2 Cor 6:1
Gal 5:4 Grace is conditionally received and one can therefore conditionally fall from it.

I don't understand why you are so concerned about falling from grace when your faith is in your WORKS for salvation AND IS NOT IN CHRIST ALONE in the first place. We have access by FAITH IN GRACE - Romans 5:2 (not works) so guess where that leaves you?

No context says grace is UNconditionally received therefore one UNconditionally always has it and never fall from it.

Why are you so obsessed with this topic when you still need to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?

Mailmandan admits grace is conditionally received by faith. Yet will Mailmandan admit that since one receives grace CONDITIONALLY by faith that also means one can fall from that grace if he quits having faith?

Which genuine believers permanently quit having faith? Some may get temporarily stumble and get side tracked by false teachers, but what is the end result? Did Peter quit having faith when he denied Christ 3 times and also when he played the part of the hypocrite in Galatians 2:11-15 when he was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel? Was this a permanent falling from grace or a temporary weak moment? Is Peter in heaven or hell?

No, so he has inconsistencies.

You have the inconsistencies, the most serious being "salvation by works" which is no salvation at all.

Some of those in Galatia were removed from the faith of the gospel (Gal 1:6f) and were fallen (past tense) for they no longer had that faith required to access grace, Rom 5:2.

According to you, but according to Paul in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind.. That doesn't sound like a hopeless done deal to me. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that the Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? As in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. You still have time to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

 

[mailmandan]

I posted;

Tts 3:7--------------justified by grace
James 2:24-----by works a man is justified
Rom 6:17,17----obey from the heart justifies

1) since the bible does not contradict itself
2) since there is just one way to be saved
3) since all verses harmonize with each other

I have already harmonized all of those verses together in posts #81-83 and showed you that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works, but unfortunately, you just don't have eyes to see because of your UNBELIEF (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

 

[mailmandan]

I don't understand how the simplicity of Christ paying for our sins completely confounds so many either. Maybe it's to hard for some of us sinful men to embrace the magnitude of God's great love and mercy towards us.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, it's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.