The Red Sea Crossing

[4enlightment]

the Book of Numbers, and the other version being slotted around the Marah narrative and around other narratives in the Book of Exodus and Book of Numbers, as appropriate;[SUP][13][/SUP] according to this view, the latter version of this list would originally have read ...and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water, then they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, ..., without mentioning Marah.[SUP][13][/SUP]
The exact location of Marah is uncertain, as are the positions of Etham, Shur, and Elim; the identification of these locations is heavily dependent on the identification of the Biblical Mount Sinai. Traditionally, Sinai was equated with one of the mountains at the south of the Sinai Peninsula leading to the identification of Marah as Ain Hawarah, a salty spring roughly 47 miles southeast fromSuez.[SUP][8][/SUP] However, the majority of both scholars and religious authorities believe that this traditional identification of Sinai is inaccurate, with the suggested alternatives being in the north and centre of the Sinai peninsula, in the Hejaz, and in the north eastern Arabah; Marah (Bible) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Dead Sea (Arabic: البحر الميت‎

al-Baḥr al-Mayyit (help·info),[SUP][4][/SUP] Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מֶּ‏‏לַ‏ח, Yām HaMélaḥ, "Sea of Salt", also Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מָּוֶת, Yām HaMā́weṯ, "The Sea of Death"), also called the Salt Sea, is a salt lake bordering Jordan to the east and Israel and Palestine to the west. Its surface and shores are 423 metres (1,388 ft) below sea level,[SUP][3][/SUP] Earth's lowest elevation on land. The Dead Sea is 377 m (1,237 ft) deep, the deepesthypersaline lake in the world. With 33.7% salinity, it is also one of the world's saltiest bodies of water
Dead Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marah could of been near the Dead sea because of it saltiness.

 

[4enlightment]

the Book of Numbers, and the other version being slotted around the Marah narrative and around other narratives in the Book of Exodus and Book of Numbers, as appropriate;[SUP][13][/SUP] according to this view, the latter version of this list would originally have read ...and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water, then they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, ..., without mentioning Marah.[SUP][13][/SUP]
The exact location of Marah is uncertain, as are the positions of Etham, Shur, and Elim; the identification of these locations is heavily dependent on the identification of the Biblical Mount Sinai. Traditionally, Sinai was equated with one of the mountains at the south of the Sinai Peninsula leading to the identification of Marah as Ain Hawarah, a salty spring roughly 47 miles southeast fromSuez.[SUP][8][/SUP] However, the majority of both scholars and religious authorities believe that this traditional identification of Sinai is inaccurate, with the suggested alternatives being in the north and centre of the Sinai peninsula, in the Hejaz, and in the north eastern Arabah; Marah (Bible) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Dead Sea (Arabic: البحر الميت‎

al-Baḥr al-Mayyit (help·info),[SUP][4][/SUP] Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מֶּ‏‏לַ‏ח, Yām HaMélaḥ, "Sea of Salt", also Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מָּוֶת, Yām HaMā́weṯ, "The Sea of Death"), also called the Salt Sea, is a salt lake bordering Jordan to the east and Israel and Palestine to the west. Its surface and shores are 423 metres (1,388 ft) below sea level,[SUP][3][/SUP] Earth's lowest elevation on land. The Dead Sea is 377 m (1,237 ft) deep, the deepesthypersaline lake in the world. With 33.7% salinity, it is also one of the world's saltiest bodies of water
Dead Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marah could of been near the Dead sea because of it saltiness.


View attachment 57517

And they must of had walked without stopping for they had travel by day with a pillar of cloud leading them and by night was a pillar of flame.

 

[oldhermit]

the Book of Numbers, and the other version being slotted around the Marah narrative and around other narratives in the Book of Exodus and Book of Numbers, as appropriate;[SUP][13][/SUP] according to this view, the latter version of this list would originally have read ...and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water, then they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, ..., without mentioning Marah.[SUP][13][/SUP]
The exact location of Marah is uncertain, as are the positions of Etham, Shur, and Elim; the identification of these locations is heavily dependent on the identification of the Biblical Mount Sinai. Traditionally, Sinai was equated with one of the mountains at the south of the Sinai Peninsula leading to the identification of Marah as Ain Hawarah, a salty spring roughly 47 miles southeast fromSuez.[SUP][8][/SUP] However, the majority of both scholars and religious authorities believe that this traditional identification of Sinai is inaccurate, with the suggested alternatives being in the north and centre of the Sinai peninsula, in the Hejaz, and in the north eastern Arabah; Marah (Bible) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Dead Sea (Arabic: البحر الميت‎

al-Baḥr al-Mayyit (help·info),[SUP][4][/SUP] Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מֶּ‏‏לַ‏ח, Yām HaMélaḥ, "Sea of Salt", also Hebrew: יָם הַ‏‏מָּוֶת, Yām HaMā́weṯ, "The Sea of Death"), also called the Salt Sea, is a salt lake bordering Jordan to the east and Israel and Palestine to the west. Its surface and shores are 423 metres (1,388 ft) below sea level,[SUP][3][/SUP] Earth's lowest elevation on land. The Dead Sea is 377 m (1,237 ft) deep, the deepesthypersaline lake in the world. With 33.7% salinity, it is also one of the world's saltiest bodies of water
Dead Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marah could of been near the Dead sea because of it saltiness.


View attachment 57517

This will not correspond with the time line laid out in Exodus. We also know that Rephidim was in the Sinai peninsula because it is here that they encounter the Amalikes who lived in that region. If The Gulf of Akaba is the crossing site then all of these locations would have to be on the Midian side of the sea. Even if we are unable to pinpoint the location of all places it is still certain from Exodus that Sinai was not in the land of Midian. The location of Pi-hahiroth is for certain in the land of Egypt which is where Israel crossed the sea into the Wilderness of Shur. This is in the Sinai peninsula.

 

[4enlightment]

This will not correspond with the time line laid out in Exodus. We also know that Rephidim was in the Sinai peninsula because it is here that they encounter the Amalikes who lived in that region. If The Gulf of Akaba is the crossing site then all of these locations would have to be on the Midian side of the sea. Even if we are unable to pinpoint the location of all places it is still certain from Exodus that Sinai was not in the land of Midian. The location of Pi-hahiroth is for certain in the land of Egypt which is where Israel crossed the sea into the Wilderness of Shur. This is in the Sinai peninsula.

Exodus 2:15When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.

Exodus 2:22Zipporah gave birth to a son, and Moses named him Gershom, saying, “I have become a foreigner in a foreign land.”

Exodus 3:1[ Moses and the Burning Bush ] Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

In other biblical passages, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Sinai, but though Sinai and Horeb are often considered to have been different names for the same place, there is a body of opinion that they may have been different locations.
Mount Horeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mountain situated in the desert of Sinai, famous for its connection with the promulgation of the Law by God through Moses (Ex. xix. 1-xx. 18). The general opinion of modern scholars is that the name "Sinai" is derived from the name of the Babylonian moon-god Sin. Mount Sinai is often referred to as "the mountain" (that is, the mountain par excellence), "the mountain of Elohim" (Hebr.), and "the mountain of Yhwh" (Hebr.; Ex. iii. 1, iv. 27, xviii. 5, xix. 2, et passim; Num. x. 33), and in many other passages it is called "Horeb"
SINAI, MOUNT - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[oldhermit]

Exodus 2:15When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.

Exodus 2:22Zipporah gave birth to a son, and Moses named him Gershom, saying, “I have become a foreigner in a foreign land.”

Exodus 3:1[ Moses and the Burning Bush ] Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

In other biblical passages, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Sinai, but though Sinai and Horeb are often considered to have been different names for the same place, there is a body of opinion that they may have been different locations.
Mount Horeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mountain situated in the desert of Sinai, famous for its connection with the promulgation of the Law by God through Moses (Ex. xix. 1-xx. 18). The general opinion of modern scholars is that the name "Sinai" is derived from the name of the Babylonian moon-god Sin. Mount Sinai is often referred to as "the mountain" (that is, the mountain par excellence), "the mountain of Elohim" (Hebr.), and "the mountain of Yhwh" (Hebr.; Ex. iii. 1, iv. 27, xviii. 5, xix. 2, et passim; Num. x. 33), and in many other passages it is called "Horeb"
SINAI, MOUNT - JewishEncyclopedia.com


View attachment 57548

In Exodus 19:2, Moses and the Israelites are camped at Rephidim (not the Mt. of God) when Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, visits them. Verse 27 says, "Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went his way to his own land [Midian]." Jethro departs from Rephidim to return to the Land of Midian.

The second passage that places Mt. Sinai outside the land of Midian is Numbers 10:30. It states, "I [Hobab] will not go, but I will
depart [from Mt. Sinai] to my own land [Midian] and to my kinsmen." Hobab is leaving Mt Sinai and returning to Midian where his kinsmen live.

 

[4enlightment]

In Exodus 19:2, Moses and the Israelites are camped at Rephidim (not the Mt. of God) when Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, visits them. Verse 27 says, "Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went his way to his own land [Midian]." Jethro departs from Rephidim to return to the Land of Midian.

The second passage that places Mt. Sinai outside the land of Midian is Numbers 10:30. It states, "I [Hobab] will not go, but I will
depart [from Mt. Sinai] to my own land [Midian] and to my kinsmen." Hobab is leaving Mt Sinai and returning to Midian where his kinsmen live.

Rephidim
Photo J.&P. Caldwell
The Caldwell family has been traveling several times to Jebel al Lawz, the real Mount Sinai, in the mountain range situated at the northwest of Saudi Arabia.
The whole region of Horeb/Sinai Rephidim, Elim, etc, is in the actual land of Midian, as it has to be, according to the Holy Scriptures account.
At Rephidim a war against the Amalekites took place.
Google Groups


Most likely they would of had walked through the towns after the opening of the Red sea, because it wouldn't make any sense for them walking through towns with a pillar of a cloud or a pillar of a flame leading the way while being chase by Pharaoh and his soldiers. They could of hid themselves from Pharaoh by blending in with the other tribes just to seek refuge and the tribes would have had consider them as gods because of the pillars. So basically they didn't encounter any tribes before the the opening of the sea. About Jethro came to visit is because he probably was told that they were camped nearby and he probably came to deliver a love letter that's from his daughter.

 

[4enlightment]

I'm sorry I have gotten a little confuse there. But the scriptures didn't said that they were in the peninsula, but it said along the peninsula.

 

[oldhermit]

Rephidim
Photo J.&P. Caldwell
The Caldwell family has been traveling several times to Jebel al Lawz, the real Mount Sinai, in the mountain range situated at the northwest of Saudi Arabia.
The whole region of Horeb/Sinai Rephidim, Elim, etc, is in the actual land of Midian, as it has to be, according to the Holy Scriptures account.
At Rephidim a war against the Amalekites took place.
Google Groups


Most likely they would of had walked through the towns after the opening of the Red sea, because it wouldn't make any sense for them walking through towns with a pillar of a cloud or a pillar of a flame leading the way while being chase by Pharaoh and his soldiers. They could of hid themselves from Pharaoh by blending in with the other tribes just to seek refuge and the tribes would have had consider them as gods because of the pillars. So basically they didn't encounter any tribes before the the opening of the sea. About Jethro came to visit is because he probably was told that they were camped nearby and he probably came to deliver a love letter that's from his daughter.

If Rephidim were in Midian, what possible motive could the Amalekites have for attacking Israel? This is more than 150 miles outside of the Amalekite territory.

The point I was making with Jethro is that he has to leave the Rephidim location in order to return to Midian. If Rephidim were in Midian this would not have been necessary. The same is true in the case of Hobab in Num. 10. If you will notice in Ex. 18:1-5, Jethro came to "the Mt. of God in the wilderness" and camped there and sent word to Moses that he was coming. At this point Moses is still in Rephidim. According to 17:1 the wilderness he is describing is the Wilderness of Sin which is in the southern region of the Sinai Peninsula. In all the areas Israel travels throughout their entire 40 years of wandering, every region is specifically names including the wilderness regions. In all of this time they are never said to have been in Midian. The reason is because they were never in Midian in all of that 40 year period.

 

[4enlightment]

If Rephidim were in Midian, what possible motive could the Amalekites have for attacking Israel? This is more than 150 miles outside of the Amalekite territory.

The point I was making with Jethro is that he has to leave the Rephidim location in order to return to Midian. If Rephidim were in Midian this would not have been necessary. The same is true in the case of Hobab in Num. 10. If you will notice in Ex. 18:1-5, Jethro came to "the Mt. of God in the wilderness" and camped there and sent word to Moses that he was coming. At this point Moses is still in Rephidim. According to 17:1 the wilderness he is describing is the Wilderness of Sin which is in the southern region of the Sinai Peninsula. In all the areas Israel travels throughout their entire 40 years of wandering, every region is specifically names including the wilderness regions. In all of this time they are never said to have been in Midian. The reason is because they were never in Midian in all of that 40 year period.

Mount Sinai means mountain of thorns and Mt. Horeb mean the mountain of God. God had told Moses to take his sandals off because this ground has been cleansed from evil or harmful elements; and which mean that he doesn't have to worry about thorns. And that was the mountain that Moses was looking for the lost sheep. I believe that later on this mountain was renamed Horeb and which the Israelites had considered it to be. Moses was the one that has written the Books and which at times he probably used the referred name Sinai and then he had used Horeb what the people has considered it to be. But then the the first five books that Moses had written had stayed in the Ark, and the re-written books were written by scribes once the Israelites had gotten settle in there kingdom. And since Moses had spoken very little the language that the hebrews had spoken (That's why its said that he was clumsy with his words and he had Aaron to speak to the people for him) and spoke very fluently Egyptian's language since he was egyptian royalty was taught very well.

 

[oldhermit]

Mount Sinai means mountain of thorns and Mt. Horeb mean the mountain of God. God had told Moses to take his sandals off because this ground has been cleansed from evil or harmful elements; and which mean that he doesn't have to worry about thorns. And that was the mountain that Moses was looking for the lost sheep. I believe that later on this mountain was renamed Horeb and which the Israelites had considered it to be. Moses was the one that has written the Books and which at times he probably used the referred name Sinai and then he had used Horeb what the people has considered it to be. But then the the first five books that Moses had written had stayed in the Ark, and the re-written books were written by scribes once the Israelites had gotten settle in there kingdom. And since Moses had spoken very little the language that the hebrews had spoken (That's why its said that he was clumsy with his words and he had Aaron to speak to the people for him) and spoke very fluently Egyptian's language since he was egyptian royalty was taught very well.

Why would you assume this? In the first place, Moses is writing by inspiration. In the second place, Moses may have grown up in Pharaoh's household but he chose to identify with the Hebrews. Remember also that he spent 40 years living in Midian whose language was Hebrew. Midian was the son of Abraham by Kuterah and these descendants were also Hebrew as were all the sons of Abraham. Hebrew is Moses' native language. It was his own mother who raised him until he was returned to Pharaoh's daughter.

 

[4enlightment]

Why would you assume this? In the first place, Moses is writing by inspiration. In the second place, Moses may have grown up in Pharaoh's household but he chose to identify with the Hebrews. Remember also that he spent 40 years living in Midian whose language was Hebrew. Midian was the son of Abraham by Kuterah and these descendants were also Hebrew as were all the sons of Abraham. Hebrew is Moses' native language. It was his own mother who raised him until he was returned to Pharaoh's daughter.

• J.W. Hayford writes: "Jewish tradition lists Moses as the author of Genesis and of the next four books....we notice a number of loanwords from Egyptian that are found in Genesis, a fact which suggests that the original author had his roots in Egypt, as did Moses." [SUB]7[/SUB]

The Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Bible

 

[oldhermit]

• J.W. Hayford writes: "Jewish tradition lists Moses as the author of Genesis and of the next four books....we notice a number of loanwords from Egyptian that are found in Genesis, a fact which suggests that the original author had his roots in Egypt, as did Moses." [SUB]7[/SUB]

The Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Bible

How does this fact suggest that Moses in less familiar with Hebrew? Hebrew was the first language he ever learned to speak having been raised for some time by his mother. You do not speak a language for 120 years and not have a command of the language and its syntactical structure.

 

[4enlightment]

How does this fact suggest that Moses in less familiar with Hebrew? Hebrew was the first language he ever learned to speak having been raised for some time by his mother. You do not speak a language for 120 years and not have a command of the language and its syntactical structure.

His mom was his wet-nurse and once he was weened, he was raised as an Egyptian. I have friends that spanish is their first language; and when they speak english, they speak sort of clumsy with the language. But at times when they speak, they'll use loan words from their formal language at times, because they'd forgotten the english word to use.

Exodus 2:7Then his sister asked Pharaoh’s daughter, “Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?”

 

[oldhermit]

His mom was his wet-nurse and once he was weened, he was raised as an Egyptian. I have friends that spanish is their first language; and when they speak english, they speak sort of clumsy with the language. But at times when they speak, they'll use loan words from their formal language at times, because they'd forgotten the english word to use.

Exodus 2:7Then his sister asked Pharaoh’s daughter, “Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?”

Your are still overlooking 2 points.
1. By the time he leaves Egypt, he has been speaking Hebrew for 80 years.
2. What he records in scripture in done so by inspiration. God has a very good command of the language.
The fact that Moses employs the use of some Egyptian words does not subtract from these facts nor does it suggest in any way that Moses was less familiar with Hebrew. In fact, considering the nature of his education, he was probably more skilled in the language than the average Hebrew.

 

[4enlightment]

Your are still overlooking 2 points.
1. By the time he leaves Egypt, he has been speaking Hebrew for 80 years.
2. What he records in scripture in done so by inspiration. God has a very good command of the language.
The fact that Moses employs the use of some Egyptian words does not subtract from these facts nor does it suggest in any way that Moses was less familiar with Hebrew. In fact, considering the nature of his education, he was probably more skilled in the language than the average Hebrew.

Yes, he has gradually spoken it very well over the years that he had no need for Aaron to speak for him, but he still he had use at times a little egyptian words in his wording. And so the mountain of thorns that he walked on bare-footed is in Midian where his father in law grazes their sheep.

 

[oldhermit]

Yes, he has gradually spoken it very well over the years that he had no need for Aaron to speak for him, but he still he had use at times a little egyptian words in his wording.

This is a quantum leap of conjecture.

And so the mountain of thorns that he walked on bare-footed is in Midian where his father in law grazes their sheep.

You keep insisting that Sinai is in Midian but you keep ignoring all of the evidence I have given you FROM SCRIPTURE that shows you that it was not. Every fact I have shown you comes right out of the text. I have made no appeal to anything outside of the scriptures. You are insisting on this based on what you think the archeological evidence points to rather that what the biblical record shows. Archeology is not where one must begin to ascertain the facts. The facts are rooted in the language of scripture not in archeology and the two do not agree.

 

[elf3]

Well after reading through the posts we may not all agree on the exact location of the crossing we can all agree on one thing....it for sure did happen