What can I say to this...

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WBerry

Guest
#1
Treatise on Morality. - YouTube

This guy is clearly an atheist, I came across him earlier today and he does make some understandable points. The whole while that he is talking i'm trying to think of some sort of refutation against anything that he is saying for the sake of future debates with my peers on the same subject matter, however I can think of nothing. What are your thoughts?
 
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pockets14

Guest
#4
When they come up with a "good" point that goes against what you believe and you cant think of anything to reply, ask them if you can get back to them later. Then go look it up in the Bible or ask someone else. Your not giving up, your just using your resources :)
 
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Brandon777

Guest
#5
First question (that I wouldn't avoid jbtw) What makes something right or wrong? If God says it's right it's right, if God says it's wrong it's wrong because of reasons which we may or may not be able to identify. Everything that's wrong hurts someone. Hurt comes from destruction. The Bible says the Evil One came to steal, kill and destroy and He's the father of lies. Destroy, hence destruction, hence hurt. It can be said for every sin. Postitution for example hurts the self-value of an individual. They hurt themselves.

He says he defines what right by what brings happiness, wellbeing or health. These are better understood by God, hence why we trust and obey what He says is right and wrong in the Bible.
The Euthyphro Dilema says either
  • The Good is willed by God because it is the Good.
  • The Good is the Good because it is willed by God.
This assumes that it has to be either or, but that's not the case. It's both. So none of the options apply.
He goes on to say that according to the Chrisitan worldview then that lots of suffering could be good because God willed it. In the Holy Bible there are places where there is intense suffering. This is used for good because then the suffering humbles the people to obey God once more, you see that with Israel in the Old Testament. The question then is what makes good good? Does it make more sense to say that doing things for the Creator of everything is good who has good intentions and vast understanding or that having less pain for a pin prick of time is good?

He talks a bit about murder being wrong and how God murders people. Murder in the Biblical definition includes the reason for doing the killing. For example. In the Old Testement when King Solomon sent for the Ark of the Covanent, (made by God's command, it was the holiest object because it was the only place on earth where the presence of God dwelled to commune with people). There were specific laws set up that told Israel how to transport it where no one could touch it and live. And Solomon disobeyed and sent a wagon to fetch it. The guy hit a bump on the trail and steadied the Ark with his hand and bam! Gone! The reasons for killing Him are deeper than we know, but from what I do know I'll discribe, because there are many instances with similar reasons. What is the most important thing in this existance? To be close to God. The people of Israel needed to be reminded that God and His judgements are to be feared. It was like a Father disciplining his people. Without that discipline, they would fall into disrespecting the voice of God. People need a reason to respect someone with the awe that God deserves.

There's a verse about Yahweh saying that Israel should make surrounding nations slaves. He does this because the surrounding nations were a trap to Israel because they were pagan, not worshiping God. And if they weren't killed or made into slaves than other religions would dominate the region. If that happened more people would eternally be in hell.
Also there's a verse about beating children with a rod. I know I was, and I know if I wasn't I would be a spoiled rebellious person today.
Also there's a verse about women being submissive to husbands. And that is for sake of order in church and family settings. If two people have a vote and vote differently nothing gets done, or a fight insues. Plus Eve was the one who was decieved by Satan.

He says moral oughts don't exist. They do. In the mind of God. So in creation they don't, but God is more important than mere creation.
Their were five minutes left and I got bored...
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
945
40
28
#6
Treatise on Morality. - YouTube

This guy is clearly an atheist, I came across him earlier today and he does make some understandable points. The whole while that he is talking i'm trying to think of some sort of refutation against anything that he is saying for the sake of future debates with my peers on the same subject matter, however I can think of nothing. What are your thoughts?
I didnt even have to see the whole video to notice how foolish this guy is... he says happiness and a couple of other things isn't subjective. Thats it... lol

His very foundation is like nothing.

Ask me questions... what makes you think he has understandable points? I mean if your saying foolishness we understand we do? Then ok his understandable... but understandable as in something with substance... nope, far from it. I'll watch his whole video later.. all I wanted to notice is a flaw, which was enough to prove he doesnt have the answers. Perfection is required to judge, he truly isnt perfect. God is only worthy.
 

Lucy68

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
2,538
22
0
#7
That's wonderful that you see your lack of ability to communicate your beliefs! Not many Christians see that as something worth trying to fix.

I know that for kids who grow up in Christian families, it can be really hard to tackle this problem. They have always believed the Christian beliefs and never had to defend them before. But here is a GREAT opportunity for you to seriously think about what you believe and why. Here are some books on apologetics that have been very helpful to me. Studying them helps us to see Christianity from another perspective and will strengthen our belief even more!

"Evidence that Demands a Verdict" Josh McDowell (rather heavy and sometimes over my head)

"The Case for Christ" Lee Strobel

"Every Thought Captive" Richard L. Pratt, Jr.

"Know Why You Believe" Paul Little (my favorite)
 
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mori

Guest
#8
There's a verse about Yahweh saying that Israel should make surrounding nations slaves. He does this because the surrounding nations were a trap to Israel because they were pagan, not worshiping God. And if they weren't killed or made into slaves than other religions would dominate the region. If that happened more people would eternally be in hell.
God didn't have any options other than killing people or making them slaves? Those both sound like very human options and rationalizations, but God couldn't have done anything other than those two things? You may make a point in this particular argument, but at the end of it you've really done some damage to your theology.
 
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Brandon777

Guest
#9
Mori: I didn't say those were His only two options, I was just giving some rationalizations for what God did. What's your theology on it? It's easy to critisize someone else when you don't give your own.
 
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WBerry

Guest
#10
He says he defines what right by what brings happiness, wellbeing or health. These are better understood by God, hence why we trust and obey what He says is right and wrong in the Bible.
The Euthyphro Dilema says either
  • The Good is willed by God because it is the Good.
  • The Good is the Good because it is willed by God.
Are you saying that we, as humans, cannot understand what bring happiness, well-being, or health? By this logic you are simply saying that you blindly follow what it says in the bible simply because God said it. No rhyme or reason, just that "God said it, I obey." Do you stone homosexuals to death? Didn't God say to do that? But I think you know a little better than that, don't you? As much as I am on His side, just because something is in the bible doesn't necessarily mean you have to go along with it.

He talks a bit about murder being wrong and how God murders people. Murder in the Biblical definition includes the reason for doing the killing. For example. In the Old Testement when King Solomon sent for the Ark of the Covanent, (made by God's command, it was the holiest object because it was the only place on earth where the presence of God dwelled to commune with people). There were specific laws set up that told Israel how to transport it where no one could touch it and live. And Solomon disobeyed and sent a wagon to fetch it. The guy hit a bump on the trail and steadied the Ark with his hand and bam! Gone!
Let me get this right. God is good. God said killing is wrong/bad. God killed this man along with many others. God can do bad things? How exactly does that work? I don't remember it saying "thou shalt not kill, unless thou has a good reason for it"

Also there's a verse about beating children with a rod. I know I was, and I know if I wasn't I would be a spoiled rebellious person today.
I was beaten plenty and it didn't do much good. I know of a lot of people for whom the same is true. Psychologists today agree that physical punishment, on the whole, is an extremely ineffective form of dicipline. However there is always going to be a percentage that will react positively.

Also there's a verse about women being submissive to husbands. And that is for sake of order in church and family settings. If two people have a vote and vote differently nothing gets done, or a fight insues. Plus Eve was the one who was decieved by Satan.
This seems a tad sexist. What difference would it make if women preached instead of/along side men? A family is composed of two parents who share an equal role in parenting, no one is more important than the other, if they can't agree on a subject there is always room for compromise. And Adam was deceived by Eve so how does that make him any more clever?
 
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mori

Guest
#11
Mori: I didn't say those were His only two options, I was just giving some rationalizations for what God did.
I'll quote:

And if they weren't killed or made into slaves than other religions would dominate the region.
As you say, unless one of these two things happen, they'd dominate the region. There's no indication there are any other options. There's no indication that any other options would work. Either dead or slaves or else. If there were options other than death or slavery, the obvious question is: why weren't those options explored?
I don't think you really considered there to be additional options - the way it's written, it seems like everybody is hemmed in and this is what they had to do.

What's your theology on it? It's easy to critisize someone else when you don't give your own.
People use God as an excuse to do what they would have done anyway.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
945
40
28
#14
Are you saying that we, as humans, cannot understand what bring happiness, well-being, or health? By this logic you are simply saying that you blindly follow what it says in the bible simply because God said it. No rhyme or reason, just that "God said it, I obey." Do you stone homosexuals to death? Didn't God say to do that? But I think you know a little better than that, don't you? As much as I am on His side, just because something is in the bible doesn't necessarily mean you have to go along with it.

Let me butt in and help you :) It's not by our reasoning... even if it were possible, we would need infinite amount of knowledge AND wisdom and even THEN, we would need the character of God to understand. So reasoning is futile. It's not by our reasoning... not by power, nor by the sword but by his Spirit that we comply to God.

We don't stone homosexuals to death, that was a task for the jews in that time and I imagine a certain message for us. Reading it, it clearly means that sin = death. And God will bring Justice, and Punishment to all sin. Which is good in his character, his truly values justice and is good for that.

Let me get this right. God is good. God said killing is wrong/bad. God killed this man along with many others. God can do bad things? How exactly does that work? I don't remember it saying "thou shalt not kill, unless thou has a good reason for it"

God can't sin. It's not in his character. God however truly reserves the right to take life away because his the giver of life. You understand that God's laws , good laws, make us unworthy and sinful. Just worthy of death, because of Justice alone, he can rightly destroy the entire world, justly. However God is also a God of Love and mercy... so right now, we should be grateful because everyday were alive... is a day we mightve been in hell, instead God loves you and me, and everyone else and endures and is patient with us and our wicked ways.


I was beaten plenty and it didn't do much good. I know of a lot of people for whom the same is true. Psychologists today agree that physical punishment, on the whole, is an extremely ineffective form of dicipline. However there is always going to be a percentage that will react positively.

Well clearly because some respond positively, like me or others. Then clearly it was choice. Physical punishment or other forms of punishment... I'd think essentially the point is the same, it's not pleasant or nice. And it's meant to just show you this thing is bad/evil. You don't have to be a Psychologist to know that. It's a matter of people just being able to take instruction I think.... behavior... acting rightly... what God wants to do, act wisely like him.


This seems a tad sexist. What difference would it make if women preached instead of/along side men? A family is composed of two parents who share an equal role in parenting, no one is more important than the other, if they can't agree on a subject there is always room for compromise. And Adam was deceived by Eve so how does that make him any more clever?

By default, by calling women, women... were being sexist already. Clearly there are differences between men and women. When we acknowledge that in our everyday life, were being sexist. It clearly isn't a bad/evil thing by default when we discern and consider the differences between men and women. That being said, as far as I understand it isn't sexist in an evil context that women can't preach. I'd have to read my Bible on the topic more but clearly it isn't evil.
Yeah thats what I have to say for now, hopefully it helped you
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
945
40
28
#15
I'll quote:

People use God as an excuse to do what they would have done anyway.
Hey Mori, I imagine you said this in the thinking of... doing anything really? Right? Good or evil.

I have to step in and tell you something about good and evil. You see good is like Truth... think about truth right now.

My name is Israel and that's the truth. However if I'm to say my name is Ishmael that is one letter off. Let say, still thinking about truth, 1% percent off from telling the truth. (I know it's not 1% but please go along) So me saying my name is Ishmael would be a lie, evil. And likewise in morality, good or evil, that's all it takes to be evil... 1% percent.... 1 sin.

Good = perfection.... 100% so you saying that people can do good, with or without God.. qouting you "People use God as an excuse to do what they would have done anyway" you can't do good without God because it takes perfection, it takes God, to do good.

People just do evil, their just different shades of evil. Trust God, pray, read the book of John. God will punish all evil with death/Hell and if you don't receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior your going to Hell. Jesus Christ was the perfect man, and he completed the moral laws of God, perfection, and then sacrificed himself for you because he loves you and resurrected from the death, showing he defeated it. Accept his free gift in Faith, in acknowledgement, that his real and then follow him.

He changed my life, I was addicted to porn and video games... I had a vision, my little brother has seen demons and I was in one sighting, didn't see the demon myself but I did see my little brother and I never seen him so terrified in my life. This is serious stuff. God is real and you need him. Ask him for Faith and help.