What is a Christian?
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Thanks. I truly love how you teach that you rely on Christ as your foundation. When I once posted how if Paul confused me, in the past, on any subject I would go and see what Jesus teaches on the subject, and I was always satisfied. I was then accused of "checking up on Paul's being an apostle." It is true, at one time Paul would make me feel uneasy until it hit me I could go to the Master Who tells us to learn of Him, and since I have always been able to read Paul and love his writings too. Thank you for the share.
I like this Cobus. You describe that there's a path to walk. Like the children of Israel: They were freed from the bondage of Pharaoh and Egypt, but that was just the beginning of their journey. Likewise, as Christ freed his people from the bondage of sin, such is just the beginning of the journey to reach the Promise Kingdom. There's a specific 'walk' we have to walk in this wilderness, led by Christ (just like God led Israel as the pillar of cloud/fire, and just like the "tribe of Judah" was commanded to *always* be first in the wilderness). God's pillar; tribe of Judah...Christ prophesied.
But we're NOT just supposed to (metaphorically) sit where we are waiting for Christ to carry us. That's not scriptural. God did not carry Israel in the sense that they floated to the promise land but he led them & guided them...and they had to be obedient & responsible to *follow* God's commands with every action (their feet and hands: whether walking & stopping...or picking a specific amount of manna on certain days and not on others). God does not change.
And as the wilderness walk drew on, ALL faithlessness died off (one way or another) and they were finally ready to enter in.
We have a work to do after Christ saves us...we must follow him step by step.
But we're NOT just supposed to (metaphorically) sit where we are waiting for Christ to carry us. That's not scriptural. God did not carry Israel in the sense that they floated to the promise land but he led them & guided them...and they had to be obedient & responsible to *follow* God's commands with every action (their feet and hands: whether walking & stopping...or picking a specific amount of manna on certain days and not on others). God does not change.
And as the wilderness walk drew on, ALL faithlessness died off (one way or another) and they were finally ready to enter in.
We have a work to do after Christ saves us...we must follow him step by step.
I associate you with 'brethren' and neither was I ever anything but loving in my posts to you, yet you associate me with 'cultist' and 'enemy' and 'subverter' and 'evil' and 'ungodly'. I pray your words aren't used against you. But be that as it may...if that is what I am to you then it's your duty to dispatch me because the sheep are in danger and the truth must prevail, correct? This is your opportunity. "Let God be true, but every man a liar".
So who is of greater authority: Paul or Christ? Since I must prove my faith *in Christ* I will tell you that Christ has greater authority than Paul. But as others have pointed out, HeRoseFromTheDead, I actually support Paul's writings. In fact, my last quote in the OP was from Paul, but let's go with that...
Let's stand on Paul as being of the Highest authority in matters of faith, even higher than Peter. Let's establish that after Christ there is no one else to which one should hold besides Paul for new testament truth...not James, not Peter, not Jude. In fact, I can show you in scripture that Paul was prophesied to be THE leader of the church after Christ (if you'd like to see it); ordained by God since *before* Christ walked the earth in the flesh.
Now...with all of the authority that you and I willingly acknowledge is rightfully Paul's, when he says the following to Timothy...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
...(standing on the words of Paul), *what scripture* was Paul referring to in his letter: was it what we call the OT or the NT?
So who is of greater authority: Paul or Christ? Since I must prove my faith *in Christ* I will tell you that Christ has greater authority than Paul. But as others have pointed out, HeRoseFromTheDead, I actually support Paul's writings. In fact, my last quote in the OP was from Paul, but let's go with that...
Let's stand on Paul as being of the Highest authority in matters of faith, even higher than Peter. Let's establish that after Christ there is no one else to which one should hold besides Paul for new testament truth...not James, not Peter, not Jude. In fact, I can show you in scripture that Paul was prophesied to be THE leader of the church after Christ (if you'd like to see it); ordained by God since *before* Christ walked the earth in the flesh.
Now...with all of the authority that you and I willingly acknowledge is rightfully Paul's, when he says the following to Timothy...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
...(standing on the words of Paul), *what scripture* was Paul referring to in his letter: was it what we call the OT or the NT?
Paul's authority came from Christ. His teachings come from Christ. Paul said nothing that Jesus did not tell him to say.
The OP is tantamount to saying only the 4 gospels are inspired and from God. I have news for you, the way we follow Christ is to follow the WHOLE counsel of God. That is because the entire Word of God is true.
A Christian is one who is saved by grace.
"For by grace you have been savedthrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:9-9
The OP is tantamount to saying only the 4 gospels are inspired and from God. I have news for you, the way we follow Christ is to follow the WHOLE counsel of God. That is because the entire Word of God is true.
A Christian is one who is saved by grace.
"For by grace you have been savedthrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:9-9
Lol truly, JaumeJ! First, all I knew about Christianity were things Paul had wrote (from sermons) and barely knew anything Christ said...Then the more I studied Christ the more I thought Paul was incorrect, when it really wasn't Paul that was incorrect but the things that I were taught about what he had said that were being misconstrued. The differences were like night and day. I had to change my foundation. Many brethren often say Christ is the foundation but his words absolutely have to be first. He is the root; the vine. EVERYONE ELSE is a branch that blooms leafs from that vine.
But no it's not equivalent, Angela. To say "Christ words come FIRST" is NOT equal to saying "Christ's words ONLY". I said Christ's words must come first. A building can not be fully built without *every* stone, so no one is excluding anything that was given...but there is *one* foundation. in other words, there's *one piece* that must be laid down **FIRST** and that foundation is every word that Christ spoke.
If his words are not planted first, he's not the foundation of the building.
If his words are not planted first, he's not the foundation of the building.
Paul's words ARE Jesus' words! I cannot not believe these anti-Paulites!! Just a cult to deny half the New Testament.
I do NOT follow Paul. I follow Jesus. But the words Paul wrote are the words given by God - by Jesus. How can anyone not understand this?
Even the gospels are words written by someone else. By your premise, you should not follow the Bible at all, since Jesus himself did not write down the words.
I do NOT follow Paul. I follow Jesus. But the words Paul wrote are the words given by God - by Jesus. How can anyone not understand this?
Even the gospels are words written by someone else. By your premise, you should not follow the Bible at all, since Jesus himself did not write down the words.
If someone uses those words against me, I will search my heart to see if they are correct, and/or examine who said them to determine if they have the holy spirit. I sincerely hope that my opinion of you is wrong.
Obviously Christ is the greatest authority; and obviously Paul had the authority to speak his words. So what Paul spoke is not to be undermined.
I don't dispute 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the least. I know the OT is very profitable. Virtually everything in it points to Christ. That is what it's useful for - building faith in the one we are commanded to follow. That's it. That's all it's good for.
Obviously Christ is the greatest authority; and obviously Paul had the authority to speak his words. So what Paul spoke is not to be undermined.
I don't dispute 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the least. I know the OT is very profitable. Virtually everything in it points to Christ. That is what it's useful for - building faith in the one we are commanded to follow. That's it. That's all it's good for.
If labels help you to vilify me you do what you must to do, sister.
But my premise is that Christ's words must come **first** (as in "before Paul's", not instead of Paul's; as in "an ordered sequence" like 1, 2, 3...) and by that premise I should not follow the bible at all?? That doesn't follow Angela.
But my premise is that Christ's words must come **first** (as in "before Paul's", not instead of Paul's; as in "an ordered sequence" like 1, 2, 3...) and by that premise I should not follow the bible at all?? That doesn't follow Angela.
If I may, let me use this as a "for instance" for the theme of this thread. What did The Messiah say?
Matthew 12:34-37
Christ said this...and I follow what the Messiah says **FIRST**, not what other's say about me. Now I'm not judging you because these words I've quoted aren't my words; they're his. It's not about what others say or do to me that matters. It's about what I say or do to others that matters. I won't ever use those words because I have to give an account for every idle word I say on the day of Judgment...and as Christ has said...
John 6:63
Christ's words ARE his spirit...and anyone who lives by his words - all of his words - has his (holy) spirit within them. One has nothing to fear from the judgment of men (or women) if one follows Christ's words.
----
Not by the words of Paul; that's not it. That's not it at all. Remember, right now we're standing on Paul's high authority; we're abiding by what he says, and he says the OT (the same scripture called "The Hebrew Scriptures" by one group and "The Torah" by another group) is good for:
1. Teaching...(what?)
2. Rebuking...(in what?)
3. Correcting...(in what?)
4. Training in righteousness...
...so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Are these not Paul's words?
Matthew 12:34-37
Christ said this...and I follow what the Messiah says **FIRST**, not what other's say about me. Now I'm not judging you because these words I've quoted aren't my words; they're his. It's not about what others say or do to me that matters. It's about what I say or do to others that matters. I won't ever use those words because I have to give an account for every idle word I say on the day of Judgment...and as Christ has said...
John 6:63
Christ's words ARE his spirit...and anyone who lives by his words - all of his words - has his (holy) spirit within them. One has nothing to fear from the judgment of men (or women) if one follows Christ's words.
----
Not by the words of Paul; that's not it. That's not it at all. Remember, right now we're standing on Paul's high authority; we're abiding by what he says, and he says the OT (the same scripture called "The Hebrew Scriptures" by one group and "The Torah" by another group) is good for:
1. Teaching...(what?)
2. Rebuking...(in what?)
3. Correcting...(in what?)
4. Training in righteousness...
...so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Are these not Paul's words?
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Hey Yahshua could you explain why you said this about Paul ? are you against Paul who is a man of God ?
Originally Posted by Yahshua
Now what I've witnessed in a few posts and threads is not only a lack of obedience in how Christ told us to treat our brethren (and instead witness pigeonholing, backbiting, verbal venom, etc.), but even when there arises specific disagreements about particular subjects of real contention very few of us actually quote *Christ* when in the middle of defending a stance...and will instead quote Paul.
Hey Yahshua could you explain why you said this about Paul ? are you against Paul who is a man of God ?
Originally Posted by Yahshua
Now what I've witnessed in a few posts and threads is not only a lack of obedience in how Christ told us to treat our brethren (and instead witness pigeonholing, backbiting, verbal venom, etc.), but even when there arises specific disagreements about particular subjects of real contention very few of us actually quote *Christ* when in the middle of defending a stance...and will instead quote Paul.
Yes they're Paul's words.
1. Teaching...(what?) - Christ
2. Rebuking...(in what?) - teachings contrary to the doctrine of Christ
3. Correcting...(in what?) - errors in beliefs and doctrines that deviate from Christ
4. Training in righteousness... of GOD in Christ
...so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. - of faith.
Christ is the focus of the OT. Nothing else matters.
1. Teaching...(what?) - Christ
2. Rebuking...(in what?) - teachings contrary to the doctrine of Christ
3. Correcting...(in what?) - errors in beliefs and doctrines that deviate from Christ
4. Training in righteousness... of GOD in Christ
...so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. - of faith.
Christ is the focus of the OT. Nothing else matters.
Excellent! So then Paul's advice is to use the Old Testament to teach Christ. And use the Old Testament to rebuke teachings contrary to the doctrine of Christ. And use the Old Testament to correct errors in beliefs and doctrines that deviate from Christ. And use the Old Testament to train in the righteousness of God in Christ. And use the Old Testament to equip a servant for every good work in faith.
But I also agree that nothing but Christ matters, as he is the focus. Christ is **first** (which is what I said in my OP). What he says ALWAYS comes first. So yes, Paul endorses use of the Old Testament (called "The Hebrew Scriptures" to some and "The Torah" to others)...but again (as we agreed) even with Paul's high authority we acknowledge that Christ is of a higher authority than Paul.
So if Christ is the only one that matters, and Christ is of a higher authority than Paul, does Christ say what Paul just said? Does Christ provide another witness to the SAME TRUTH Paul just said to Timothy? Does Christ endorse the Old Testament (called "The Hebrew Scriptures" to some and "The Torah" to others) for these SAME THINGS outlined by Paul and detailed by you?
But I also agree that nothing but Christ matters, as he is the focus. Christ is **first** (which is what I said in my OP). What he says ALWAYS comes first. So yes, Paul endorses use of the Old Testament (called "The Hebrew Scriptures" to some and "The Torah" to others)...but again (as we agreed) even with Paul's high authority we acknowledge that Christ is of a higher authority than Paul.
So if Christ is the only one that matters, and Christ is of a higher authority than Paul, does Christ say what Paul just said? Does Christ provide another witness to the SAME TRUTH Paul just said to Timothy? Does Christ endorse the Old Testament (called "The Hebrew Scriptures" to some and "The Torah" to others) for these SAME THINGS outlined by Paul and detailed by you?
I hope and pray you are not saying Yeshua does not teach us to obey the commandments of moral and good behavior.
You know He declared He completed the law, and He did not abolish it? People who do not see this are quite blind.
On the cross, Yeshua destroyed the sting of death, that is the punishment for sin, and sin is transgressing the law, it is not the law itself.
Sin found its power in the law, but now, it has no power for those who are truly in Yeshua.
All of this is taught in the New Testament, and in the Old if the veil is not over the eyes.
You know He declared He completed the law, and He did not abolish it? People who do not see this are quite blind.
On the cross, Yeshua destroyed the sting of death, that is the punishment for sin, and sin is transgressing the law, it is not the law itself.
Sin found its power in the law, but now, it has no power for those who are truly in Yeshua.
All of this is taught in the New Testament, and in the Old if the veil is not over the eyes.
L
That's exactly what Paul taught.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1 Corinthians 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
I believe that this is an excellent example of Paul always pointing to Christ and never to himself.
Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Acts 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1 Corinthians 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
I believe that this is an excellent example of Paul always pointing to Christ and never to himself.
Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Acts 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Of course I'm not saying that Jesus taught to disobey the commandments. This is the continual knee-jerk reaction and misrepresentation that is repeated over and over and over. Jesus taught HOW to keep the commandments - faith and love. Sin has no power over those who walk in the spirit of love through faith. Those who walk after the law are under the law; and the law gives sin power over them, whether they say they have faith or not.