I see all the silly people of this world still fighting over this messiah vs that messiah etc.. I see none following any of these so called messengers anyway. All your holy writings have been altered by the hands of corrupt men. Why none can see that is beyond me. These books have deliberately been altered to make those that don't have the truth of God with in them fight to the death or sit doing nothing waiting for some one to save them. You can't find God in any book. When will we learn that. Look into a child's eye and see the innocence this world corrupts. Try to get that light and innocence back into your own eyes. Then maybe you will find the true word of God within each of us. I have a message from God and it's as old as time, but none want it because none have it themselves. Me included, but I wanna try and I need all your help to get it. shalom
Which is more important, the messenger or the message?
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N
I'm not sure I understand your concerns. Are you saying all translations of the Bible are corrupt? That we can't find God in the Bible? I agree, we can't find God in the Bible but we learn what God wants from us, what Jesus teaches, and we have His scriptures to help us talk to Him. We need the Word of God to keep us following His path. (Your word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105)
Forgive me if I've misunderstood your point.
Forgive me if I've misunderstood your point.
if Jesus didn't write the bible, can it be trusted to be interpreted by the kings he came to overthrow? The bible fixates on Jesus being God and not being God's messenger so much. He didn't come to punish sinners as revelations would have us believe, did he? Did he come to destroy this world or save it? i know he has to burn it down to rebuild it? That will be true if we all just sit here waiting for him to save us. He has shown us the way and we go the other. My God, why has he forsaken us?
Strictly saying to this: "
[h=2]"Which is more important, the messenger or the message?"[/h]Both are important! A poor message or messenger don't match its goal being below a STANDARD.
Besides, if a message is IMPORTANT the Giver could come to convey his ideas PERSONALLY (to be assured he sent or gave it right)
[h=2]"Which is more important, the messenger or the message?"[/h]Both are important! A poor message or messenger don't match its goal being below a STANDARD.
Besides, if a message is IMPORTANT the Giver could come to convey his ideas PERSONALLY (to be assured he sent or gave it right)
Everybody falls short of ....... so who are we to set standards for others striving to find God's truth? My message was recieved through the nashing of teeth as many will find his message too. So, it isn't pretty nor perfect, admittably so. But I believe it's as good as I could get it. So, I will live or die by it trying to uphold it. I've delivered it personally, and all are afraid of it. For it is the word of Isaiha oops, and Jesus. They offer us a choice. Go the way we are now and reap what we sow or turn this hell bound train around. Which shall it be? Sit and watch this plane crash? or bum rush the hijackers and at least fight to save it?
Here I see JESUS as messenger and the message was given with a Higher standard.
God was "monitoring" Jesus, those days of His public ministry. He (God) testified and gave publicly His seal of approval, before Jesus started His ministry (40 days after birth), before He started teaching, in front of John, at His baptism, in front of His disciples and James, Simon Peter + the other John, in front of those who saw Lazarus risen, in front of those who watched Him at His glorious cross, and with many -many-witnesses who have said HE IS RISEN and CHANGED THEIR LIFE.
Glory to God Jah, our powerful Father and to His Son Jesus.
God was "monitoring" Jesus, those days of His public ministry. He (God) testified and gave publicly His seal of approval, before Jesus started His ministry (40 days after birth), before He started teaching, in front of John, at His baptism, in front of His disciples and James, Simon Peter + the other John, in front of those who saw Lazarus risen, in front of those who watched Him at His glorious cross, and with many -many-witnesses who have said HE IS RISEN and CHANGED THEIR LIFE.
Glory to God Jah, our powerful Father and to His Son Jesus.
The message is absolutely important and the messenger is not at all. Under the law, importance was given to persons and status, but now under christianity it is purely the message(a.k.a the spirit). This is why christianity is open to all regardless of gender, race, status, etc. Jesus had to come as a jew because that was the dispensation of the law and the jews were God's chosen, so any messiah at all in that time had to be jew. But not anymore. Christ's second coming can be of any race.
This is also why it was said: "God is a spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit(message) and in truth(message)" (John 4:24)
Also why it is written: "You will know them by their fruits ..."(Matthew 7:16)
So it is not the person, no matter who it might be, but by what he claims and does, by whether or not he proves/demonstrates the doctrine(message) he claims.
If God himself(or Jesus) appears to you, there's no way you'd recognize him but by his words and actions. Not by his person.
This is also why it was said: "God is a spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit(message) and in truth(message)" (John 4:24)
Also why it is written: "You will know them by their fruits ..."(Matthew 7:16)
So it is not the person, no matter who it might be, but by what he claims and does, by whether or not he proves/demonstrates the doctrine(message) he claims.
If God himself(or Jesus) appears to you, there's no way you'd recognize him but by his words and actions. Not by his person.
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C
God is holy, the message contained in his word is holy. And those who are privileged to bear the message must too be holy!
(1 Peter 1:15, 16) but, in accord with the Holy One who called YOU, do YOU also become holy yourselves in all [YOUR] conduct, 16because it is written: “YOU must be holy, because I am holy.”
The message and the messenger must be complimentary.
(1 Peter 1:15, 16) but, in accord with the Holy One who called YOU, do YOU also become holy yourselves in all [YOUR] conduct, 16because it is written: “YOU must be holy, because I am holy.”
The message and the messenger must be complimentary.
Compare me with Billy Graham as messengers, Whom will you listen to? (Not me, because I'm mute).
Just listen to Jesus, of a higher standard:
John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
John 4:48
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were THE MESSENGERS. The message was THE SAME. Jesus had to come to fulfill the higher standard because those messengers were MESS-eagers, and Jesus rebuked them to ACHIEVE a higher standard to FIT THE MESSAGE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GIVE. (as it can be inferred from Jesus' rebuke).
Am I giving a good witnessing, teaching a "good" thing but doing another?
Matthew 23:3
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. (those mess-eagers) But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
So here, I see the importance of a matching messenger to the message. If GOD monitors, signs or healing could be for free. A preacher, as a "messenger" has to live according to his preaching...
Just listen to Jesus, of a higher standard:
John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
John 4:48
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were THE MESSENGERS. The message was THE SAME. Jesus had to come to fulfill the higher standard because those messengers were MESS-eagers, and Jesus rebuked them to ACHIEVE a higher standard to FIT THE MESSAGE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GIVE. (as it can be inferred from Jesus' rebuke).
Am I giving a good witnessing, teaching a "good" thing but doing another?
Matthew 23:3
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. (those mess-eagers) But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
So here, I see the importance of a matching messenger to the message. If GOD monitors, signs or healing could be for free. A preacher, as a "messenger" has to live according to his preaching...
R
Good observation.
Turn your attention to the ones that don't know they are following, and you will see them.
Altered, but not to a degree that really makes us behave any differently than we would if they were perfectly preserved.
We'd still do the exact same things either way, because the people from the times of penmanship are clearly recorded as also neglecting the word.
They are sufficiently preserved, because the parts that were altered are not as important as the parts that were not altered. Though it may seem otherwise, God has this under His control, He is allowing us to receive what we put out. It is an escalation, to "shorten the days."
If a prophet is deceived, God has deceived that prophet, is what He says.
Right. We are supposed to find ourselves in the book(s), and let that witness the God we find with our heart.
You're quoting a revelation of Jesus Christ there -
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."
What is that message?
Whoop! There it is!
Breathe brother, breathe, it will come.
Turn your attention to the ones that don't know they are following, and you will see them.
Altered, but not to a degree that really makes us behave any differently than we would if they were perfectly preserved.
We'd still do the exact same things either way, because the people from the times of penmanship are clearly recorded as also neglecting the word.
They are sufficiently preserved, because the parts that were altered are not as important as the parts that were not altered. Though it may seem otherwise, God has this under His control, He is allowing us to receive what we put out. It is an escalation, to "shorten the days."
If a prophet is deceived, God has deceived that prophet, is what He says.
Right. We are supposed to find ourselves in the book(s), and let that witness the God we find with our heart.
You're quoting a revelation of Jesus Christ there -
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."
What is that message?
Whoop! There it is!
Breathe brother, breathe, it will come.
the eye is the lamp of the soul. many would say the bible has been corrupted by the hands of men. i for one used to agree. then i actually experienced what is taught in the bible. the bible confirms the experience. most tend to argue about translations because they cannot witness to the experience. repent, ask Jesus for help, be led by the Spirit and put to death the sins of the flesh, take communion be baptized. after that understanding is as easy as looking into someones eyes.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
Without a messenger there is no message. Particularly if you're referring to Jesus and His message of redemption.
I see God's Word as being to big to fit any human language. And having inspired the original writings from which all the others are derived, I can't see Him not influencing the honest derivatives thereof as well. The trick is to not read a Bible, but to read a bunch of them. Circle yourself with them and sit in the middle. Yes there are obvious human (and otherwise) alterations that one must learn to discern. That's where keeping your focus on the Messenger first comes to play in reading the message.
There was a point in the thread about the fairness of sinners being condemned to damnation (or something like that). I always understood it a different way. Suppose I built a resort for homeless people. All I asked for their free use of it, is that they stop and acknowlege me on their way in the door. That's it, say thanks and you're in; tell me to go screw myself and you can go sit on the curb in the elements. Am I really being evil to all those who chose to sit on the curb?
As for bum rushing the hijackers, another thread had me almost starting one about something similar. For example, Jesus tells us that in the end many are going to turn away from Him and the truth of His Word. Knowing that is the inevitable end, do I then pray for people to turn away? Or do I pray they be strong and faithful, knowing that nonetheless many will fail in it? I choose to pray they stay faithful, and increase their faith even more in the face of it. So yeah, let's bum rush the hijackers. Let's just remember who they are (and they ain't human).
I sense a strong spiritual connection in the OP, and I agree with him that it can definitely influence they way you interpret things, and how you see others interpreting them. A whole lotta bookworms need to see the spiritual realm clearer, I pray for that every day (it's even my signature). But I would warn the OP that you have to stick with the Word, even with it's human translations, for they are what will keep you centered and show you the boundaries.
I see God's Word as being to big to fit any human language. And having inspired the original writings from which all the others are derived, I can't see Him not influencing the honest derivatives thereof as well. The trick is to not read a Bible, but to read a bunch of them. Circle yourself with them and sit in the middle. Yes there are obvious human (and otherwise) alterations that one must learn to discern. That's where keeping your focus on the Messenger first comes to play in reading the message.
There was a point in the thread about the fairness of sinners being condemned to damnation (or something like that). I always understood it a different way. Suppose I built a resort for homeless people. All I asked for their free use of it, is that they stop and acknowlege me on their way in the door. That's it, say thanks and you're in; tell me to go screw myself and you can go sit on the curb in the elements. Am I really being evil to all those who chose to sit on the curb?
As for bum rushing the hijackers, another thread had me almost starting one about something similar. For example, Jesus tells us that in the end many are going to turn away from Him and the truth of His Word. Knowing that is the inevitable end, do I then pray for people to turn away? Or do I pray they be strong and faithful, knowing that nonetheless many will fail in it? I choose to pray they stay faithful, and increase their faith even more in the face of it. So yeah, let's bum rush the hijackers. Let's just remember who they are (and they ain't human).
I sense a strong spiritual connection in the OP, and I agree with him that it can definitely influence they way you interpret things, and how you see others interpreting them. A whole lotta bookworms need to see the spiritual realm clearer, I pray for that every day (it's even my signature). But I would warn the OP that you have to stick with the Word, even with it's human translations, for they are what will keep you centered and show you the boundaries.
The message is more important because it is the content of the message that must stand up to scrutiny regardless of who the messenger is.
Even more so in the case of ancient religious texts where the messenger is not clear but many times asserted, thus justifying the message.
Where it should be that the validity of the message that justifies the messenger.
Even more so in the case of ancient religious texts where the messenger is not clear but many times asserted, thus justifying the message.
Where it should be that the validity of the message that justifies the messenger.