Which verse supports Christ return BEFORE the Tribulation?

[starfield]

Luke 21:36- Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Thess 1:10- And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Rev 13:7- And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Deliverance can only be physical removal from earth because there would be no protection on the face of earth, so the saints in Rev 13:7 cannot be church-age believers but rather tribulation saints.

2 Thess 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The Holy Spirit has to be taken out before the antichrist is revealed.

Jude 1:14- And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Christ will come with his saints (the bride) at His second coming, while the rapture is for his saints.

Rev 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 Thess 5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The great tribulation is when God pours out His wrath on the unbelieving world but as per 1 Thess 5:9, the church is not appointed to wrath. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9).
However,...
John 16:33- These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Rom 5:3- And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 12:12- Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
...as we see today, believers face persecutions and tribulations for Christ's sake.
Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation [wrath] be overpast. Prophecy of the catching away of the church to meet the Lord.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
In the passages above depict a resurrection and rapture, and then the wrath of God.
God will not punish His bride who have been bought with the blood of Christ and cleansed from iniquity.

Matt 24:44- Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The imminence of the rapture spoken of in the scriptures fits with a pre-tribulation view.

 

[Hermeneutica]

Try the entire 2nd epistle to the Thessalonians...... it tells you where when and why Jesus returns.....and should you think you are in the Tribulation, you are indeed among that congregation that has been shaken and deceived. But there is no excuse for that because you now possess that document.

The real problem is that you don't have a pastor who studies and teaches daily... He may do so once a week and he may accurately teach. But there is no real depth to what he says and worst of all no challenge to you to advance in your understanding of the Word... go find one that teaches DAILY. And.... you can read all about in in Eph 4 and the pastoral epistles (written to pastors, NOT CONGREGATIONS),.

 

[SarahM777]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Day of the Lord a time of judgement? Why would Jesus use these examples of times of judgement and say this

Luke 17

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [

Both times the believers were in a sense "removed" before the judgment,He then goes on to say that at that at the time that the Son of Man is revealed one will be taken and the other left,and the pattern is in like manner as Noah and Lot,first the believers are removed then judgement.

Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Who is the one holding back the lawless one? Who is the He that has to be removed before the lawless one can be revealed? I believe the one that is holding back the lawless one is the Holy Spirit. We are given a promise that as believers the Holy Spirit indwells in us,God can not go against His promise,if He does so it makes Him out to be a liar. If the Holy Spirit is in us and then the Holy Spirit is removed what does that mean? It can only mean that when the Holy Spirit is removed so the lawless one can be revealed,believers must also be removed at the same time.

John in Revelation 6

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

The rider of the white horse is the beginning of God's wrath being poured out. (This is after the 3 chapters where Jesus is speaking to the 7 churches,after chapter 3 the church is not addressed again on earth) We are promised that we are not under God's wrath anymore,and if so then why would the church be here during the time of God's wrath?

Now that being said it does not mean that believers won't face intense persecution before these things take place. Jesus even said we may lose our friends,family,homes,all our material possessions and maybe even our lives. It is very easy to forget that is what the early church faced and that somehow we will be spared from it is a far cry from what Jesus,Paul and history tells us. We are never promised that we will not face the wrath of man,we are even told to expect it. The danger will come when those that are so sure that somehow we will avoid man's wrath and try to make it that we are going through the time of tribulation. I have come to the point that it shouldn't matter if the rapture does or does not take place,what should matter is that I should be coming to know Him more,love Him more,trust Him more and to obey Him. There are no guarantees that I will even make it to the rapture,the point should be we should all be prepared to meet Him face to face today in what ever means God uses to take us home. My focus should be on God and whatever He chooses let His will be done.

 

[peterT]

Luke 21:36- Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Thess 1:10- And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Rev 13:7- And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Deliverance can only be physical removal from earth because there would be no protection on the face of earth, so the saints in Rev 13:7 cannot be church-age believers but rather tribulation saints.

2 Thess 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The Holy Spirit has to be taken out before the antichrist is revealed.

Jude 1:14- And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Christ will come with his saints (the bride) at His second coming, while the rapture is for his saints.

Rev 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 Thess 5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The great tribulation is when God pours out His wrath on the unbelieving world but as per 1 Thess 5:9, the church is not appointed to wrath. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9).
However,...
John 16:33- These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Rom 5:3- And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 12:12- Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
...as we see today, believers face persecutions and tribulations for Christ's sake.
Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation [wrath] be overpast. Prophecy of the catching away of the church to meet the Lord.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
In the passages above depict a resurrection and rapture, and then the wrath of God.
God will not punish His bride who have been bought with the blood of Christ and cleansed from iniquity.

Matt 24:44- Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The imminence of the rapture spoken of in the scriptures fits with a pre-tribulation view.

We are already in the heavens standing on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast, Then the wrath is poured out upon the wicked that have the mark of the beast

God has not appointed us unto his wrath


Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

The wrath is for the wicked not for Gods people. After getting the victory over the beast we are standing on the sea of glass and then the wrath is poured out upon the wicked that have the mark of the beast.

 

[peterT]

Luke 21:36- Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Thess 1:10- And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Rev 13:7- And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Deliverance can only be physical removal from earth because there would be no protection on the face of earth, so the saints in Rev 13:7 cannot be church-age believers but rather tribulation saints.

2 Thess 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The Holy Spirit has to be taken out before the antichrist is revealed.

Jude 1:14- And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Christ will come with his saints (the bride) at His second coming, while the rapture is for his saints.

Rev 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 6:16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 Thess 5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The great tribulation is when God pours out His wrath on the unbelieving world but as per 1 Thess 5:9, the church is not appointed to wrath. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him (Rom 5:9).
However,...
John 16:33- These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Rom 5:3- And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 12:12- Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
...as we see today, believers face persecutions and tribulations for Christ's sake.
Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation [wrath] be overpast. Prophecy of the catching away of the church to meet the Lord.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
In the passages above depict a resurrection and rapture, and then the wrath of God.
God will not punish His bride who have been bought with the blood of Christ and cleansed from iniquity.

Matt 24:44- Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The imminence of the rapture spoken of in the scriptures fits with a pre-tribulation view.

All these verses and yet none of them show Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.

All these verses and yet none of them show an event were Jesus comes before the tribulation

All these verses and yet none of them show the dead rising in the clouds before the tribulation

All these verses and yet none of them show the saved living,rising in the clouds before the tribulation

NO resurrection, NO rapture, No event, NO rising, NO NOTHING.

If you are trying to squeeze a resurrection or rapture out of a parable I have got one for you.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

a parable

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[peterT]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Day of the Lord a time of judgement? Why would Jesus use these examples of times of judgement and say this

Luke 17

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

.

It’s funny how some Christians use the story of the days of Noah, to justify a pre-tribulation coming
When jesus used that same story about the days of Noah in Matt24 showing his coming after the tribulation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

a parable

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[SarahM777]

I thank you for the response to the first part but what about this part?

Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Who is the one holding back the lawless one? Who is the He that has to be removed before the lawless one can be revealed? I believe the one that is holding back the lawless one is the Holy Spirit. We are given a promise that as believers the Holy Spirit indwells in us,God can not go against His promise,if He does so it makes Him out to be a liar. If the Holy Spirit is in us and then the Holy Spirit is removed what does that mean? It can only mean that when the Holy Spirit is removed so the lawless one can be revealed,believers must also be removed at the same time.

 

[peterT]

I thank you for the response to the first part but what about this part?

Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Who is the one holding back the lawless one? Who is the He that has to be removed before the lawless one can be revealed? I believe the one that is holding back the lawless one is the Holy Spirit. We are given a promise that as believers the Holy Spirit indwells in us,God can not go against His promise,if He does so it makes Him out to be a liar. If the Holy Spirit is in us and then the Holy Spirit is removed what does that mean? It can only mean that when the Holy Spirit is removed so the lawless one can be revealed,believers must also be removed at the same time.

How is the Holy Spirit removed before the great tribulation?.

He will teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance and lead you into truth and give you power to be witnesses and comfort you

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The two witnesses in Rv11 also obey him during the tribulation and are filled with the Holy Ghost and have great power to be witnesses

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Never mind the 144000 which are the first fruits during the great tribulation just like the disciples. The Holy Spirit will also teach them and give them power to be witnesses and comfort them..

The Holy Spirit is NOT removed by a long shot

 

[SarahM777]

Who is the one that holds back lawlessness and who is he that is to be removed before the lawless one can be revealed?

6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It's a first this then that. There is someone or something holding back the lawless one,who will not be revealed,till that one is taken out of the way.

 

[starfield]

All these verses and yet none of them show Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.

All these verses and yet none of them show an event were Jesus comes before the tribulation

All these verses and yet none of them show the dead rising in the clouds before the tribulation

All these verses and yet none of them show the saved living,rising in the clouds before the tribulation

NO resurrection, NO rapture, No event, NO rising, NO NOTHING.

If you are trying to squeeze a resurrection or rapture out of a parable I have got one for you.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

a parable

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

the one shall be taken, and the other left.

That passage is a reference to the second coming of Christ, not the rapture. Is the event in 1 Thess 4:16-18 and 1 Cor 15:52 is the same as Matt 24:31? How do you define the rapture?

 

[peterT]

That passage is a reference to the second coming of Christ, not the rapture. Is the event in 1 Thess 4:16-18 and 1 Cor 15:52 is the same as Matt 24:31? How do you define the rapture?

1 Thess 4:16-18 and 1 Cor 15:52 is the same as Matt 24:31 and Rv11
All the same raising in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet the last trumpet before the 1000 years.

 

[peterT]

Who is the one that holds back lawlessness and who is he that is to be removed before the lawless one can be revealed?

6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It's a first this then that. There is someone or something holding back the lawless one,who will not be revealed,till that one is taken out of the way.

Is the your pre-tribulation coming ?

Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds.

Nothing about the dead and the living rising at the sound of a trumpet

No event showing Jesus coming.

No angels doing any reaping

Nothing.



The only thing that is is an angel or something moving out of the way so the man of sin can be revealed.

There is No pre-trib coming in them verses.

You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.


..

 

[zone]

1 Thess 4:16-18 and 1 Cor 15:52 is the same as Matt 24:31 and Rv11
All the same raising in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet the last trumpet before the 1000 years.

peter,
why'd you add this "before the 1000 years."?

 

[peterT]

peter,
why'd you add this "before the 1000 years."?

Sorry Don’t know what you mean Zone

 

[peterT]

peter,
why'd you add this "before the 1000 years."?

Gotcha Zone.

Because apparently I am a pre-Millennium Christian, so to add that, that would be my job.

As I don’t see you rearing the 1000 years right now.

Because you don’t have your crowns yet, because He brings them when he comes.

You don’t have your rewards yet, because He brings them when he comes.

You don’t even know who is the kings and who are the priests yet.

And because the devil is not bound, as he walks about as a roaring lion seeking how he may devour.

And if he walks about then that’s not being bound with a key and a chain in a bottomless pit, and there is no liberty and walking about when you are bound with a key and a chain in a bottomless pit .

So as you can see to me the 1000 years has not started yet.

And that’s why I added those things

 

[starfield]

1 Thess 4:16-18 and 1 Cor 15:52 is the same as Matt 24:31 and Rv11
All the same raising in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet the last trumpet before the 1000 years.

1. What is the purpose of the great tribulation?

2. How do you define the rapture? Perhaps if we establish the definition of the rapture then we would know if Matt 24:31 allude to it.

3. Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the elect?

4. Deu 30:3-4 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Isaiah 11:12- And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 27:13- And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Isaiah 43:5-6 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
The passages above are similar to Matt 24:31, so are they suggesting the rapture of believers too? Is the angelic gathering of the remnant of Israel the rapture?

5. Rev 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Who do the 24 elders represent?

 

[peterT]

1. What is the purpose of the great tribulation?

2. How do you define the rapture? Perhaps if we establish the definition of the rapture then we would know if Matt 24:31 allude to it.

3. Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the elect?

4. Deu 30:3-4 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Isaiah 11:12- And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 27:13- And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Isaiah 43:5-6 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
The passages above are similar to Matt 24:31, so are they suggesting the rapture of believers too? Is the angelic gathering of the remnant of Israel the rapture?

5. Rev 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Who do the 24 elders represent?

I have defined what some call the rapture already in this post on this thread “Jesus coming to get us”

The tribulation is a testing a purging a purifying a trying of your faith, and faith tried in the fire, a lesson in patience and to make you white, and separation of the tares from the wheat .

First the angels gather the tares and bind them into bundles the people that take the mark of the beast, and then the angels gather the wheat into his barn.

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

3. Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the elect?

Why don’t you tell me who you think the elect are ?



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