Who´s God´s chosen people?

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 9:4-5 (KJV)
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:4-5 (NET)
4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises.
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

ROM 9:4-5 (Wuest)who in character are Israelites, who are possessors of the position of a son by having been placed as such, and of the glory, and of the covenants, and to whom was given the law, and who are possessors of the sacred service and the promises, of whom are the fathers, and out from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, the One who is above all, God eulogized forever. Amen.

Notice the present tenses in the above verses.e.g."who are Israelites", not 'were'.

to add

rom 11 :
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable

 

[Utah]

The majority of Messianic Jews are Gentile wanna be's and not ethic Jews.

Please elaborate on the, gentile wanna be's statement.

 

[valiant]

to add

rom 11 :
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable

yes you will note that 'all Israel will be saved' when the fullness of the Gentiles are gathered in. They are an essential part of 'all Israel' (Rom 11.12-24),

As Paul then says Israel is divided into two parts, one part are enemies for 'your sake', the others, 'the election', the believing remnant, are beloved for the fathers sakes. Its time you understood Romans 9-11. They are NOT all Israel who are Israel (9.6)

 

[valiant]

Romans 9:4-5 (KJV)
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:4-5 (NET)
4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises.
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

ROM 9:4-5 (Wuest)who in character are Israelites, who are possessors of the position of a son by having been placed as such, and of the glory, and of the covenants, and to whom was given the law, and who are possessors of the sacred service and the promises, of whom are the fathers, and out from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, the One who is above all, God eulogized forever. Amen.

Notice the present tenses in the above verses.e.g."who are Israelites", not 'were'.

Of course its the present tense. It was referring to those who were related to Paul. But it has no other significance. Paul immediately goes on to point out that they are not all Israel who are Israel (9.6). The whole of Rom 9-11 is designed to demonstrate that it is only the election of Israel, the believing remnant, who are the true Israel as augmented by believing Gentiles. The remainder of Israel is cast off.

 

[TMS]

Paul is plain in Roms 11
There is only one olive tree with Holy roots.
It makes no difference as long as you are connected to the Tree. There aren't different groups of people more or less important we are all children of God through Christ.
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes you will note that 'all Israel will be saved' when the fullness of the Gentiles are gathered in. They are an essential part of 'all Israel' (Rom 11.12-24),

Well I could. But I would have to ignore half of all prophesy. and twist the words of paul

Fullness of the gentiles does not mean no more gentiles will ever be saved, Paul did not spend all of chapter 11 separating saved and unsaved gentile vs saved and unsaved Israel only to put them under one again.

As Paul then says Israel is divided into two parts, one part are enemies for 'your sake', the others, 'the election', the believing remnant, are beloved for the fathers sakes. Its time you understood Romans 9-11. They are NOT all Israel who are Israel (9.6)

Yes, At the time of writting this letter. Israel was split into two sections. The remnant (which there ALWAYS WERE) and the blind (in part)

But paul tells us all (and for some reason, you are refusing to listen to him) that we GENTILES are not to be wise in our own opinion (view) That isreal is only BLINDED IN PART until the FULLNESS of the gentiles comes in.

It is time for you to stop listening to the view of Romans 9-11 taught for so many years. and start to actually see what Paul is trying to say. (it took me a few years of deep study to finally figure it out myself)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is plain in Roms 11
There is only one olive tree with Holy roots.
It makes no difference as long as you are connected to the Tree. There aren't different groups of people more or less important we are all children of God through Christ.
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

one needs to interpret Romans 9 - 11 in a way paul wrote it, and it would have been understood by those who first read his words.

Paul was answering the question, did God make a mistake (rom 9: 6) choosing Israel.

Pauls answer.... NO!

he then goes on for three chapters explaining why

we can go into a study of romans 9 if one wishes this is not the thread for it. and I do not want to hijack it.

 

[valiant]

Well I could. But I would have to ignore half of all prophesy. and twist the words of paul

That in fact is what you do You ignore the parts that disagree with your views.

Fullness of the gentiles does not mean no more gentiles will ever be saved,

Of course it does. When the final Gentile has been saved then Israel will be complete. 'All Israel' will have been saved.

Paul did not spend all of chapter 11 separating saved and unsaved gentile vs saved and unsaved Israel only to put them under one again.

He did not separate them he demonstrated that God had brought them together FROM their separation..

Yes, At the time of writting this letter. Israel was split into two sections. The remnant (which there ALWAYS WERE) and the blind (in part)

And unbelieving Israel had been rejected. And the remnant who had believe in the Messiah who were the election of Israel, the true Israel.

But paul tells us all (and for some reason, you are refusing to listen to him) that we GENTILES are not to be wise in our own opinion (view) That isreal is only BLINDED IN PART until the FULLNESS of the gentiles comes in.

I hear him alright. Blindness has happened to part of Israel, and there is no suggestion that that blindness will be removed, for they are no longer Israel. They have been broken off the olive tree. But God is merciful, so that those who do repent and believe in the Messiah will be saved. But as always they will be a remnant.

It is time for you to stop listening to the view of Romans 9-11 taught for so many years. and start to actually see what Paul is trying to say. (it took me a few years of deep study to finally figure it out myself)

you mean I should stop listening to Paul? No thank you. I know exactly what he is saying. That only the remnant of Israel, the election of Israel, are the true Israel, and they are augmented by believing Gentiles as Scripture had promised.

LOL you mean it took you a few years to learn how to twist it to fit into your opinions?

 

[Utah]

First paragraph is true:

I went to a comedy show and at one point the comedian was making fun of Jesus. A Jewish man in the audience was laughing so hard he was hunched over and had tears in his eyes. The next minute, the comedian was making fun of Jews and the Jewish man was seething in anger.

Now I ask a hypothetical question:

The Jewish man died that night in his mocking, unbelief in Jesus. Was he saved?

 

[valiant]

one needs to interpret Romans 9 - 11 in a way paul wrote it, and it would have been understood by those who first read his words.

For once we agree.

Paul was answering the question, did God make a mistake (rom 9: 6) choosing Israel.

That is where you go wrong. You ask the wrong question. Paul was actually answering the question, does the Gospel that he has expounded and the unbelief of most of Israel mean that God's purposes have failed?

You should perhaps note that outside chapter 9-11 Paul does not mention Israel. He speaks only of the Jews. And even then he makes clear that true Jews are a remnant who are supplemented by Gentiles (Rom 2.26-29). This is because his concept of Israel is different from his concept of the Jews. Not all Israel are Israel.

he then goes on for three chapters explaining why

yes he makes clear that God's plans for Israel have been fulfilled in the remnant, the election of Israel, augmented by believing Gentiles as Scripture had revealed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For once we agree.



That is where you go wrong. You ask the wrong question. Paul was actually answering the question, does the Gospel that he has expounded and the unbelief of most of Israel mean that God's purposes have failed?

I cannot agree with this. the 1st 6 verses of Romans 9 sets the stage, and this does not fit what you just said.

You should perhaps note that outside chapter 9-11 Paul does not mention Israel. He speaks only of the Jews. And even then he makes clear that true Jews are a remnant who are supplemented by Gentiles (Rom 2.26-29). This is because his concept of Israel is different from his concept of the Jews. Not all Israel are Israel.

Non of this matters, this is not the context of romans 9 - 11. The context is NOT who gets saved and who does not. the context is Has God made a mistake.

Again, Your interpreting based on belief, not on context and historical perspective

yes he makes clear that God's plans for Israel have been fulfilled in the remnant, the election of Israel, augmented by believing Gentiles as Scripture had revealed.

Here you go again. He does not state this at all. there is no way one with an opened mind could read these three chapters using proper hermenuetics could come up with this as a interpretation of what Paul said.

PS your fatalistic view is showing, I thought you did not listen to men?

 

[Jesus4ever]

First paragraph is true:

I went to a comedy show and at one point the comedian was making fun of Jesus. A Jewish man in the audience was laughing so hard he was hunched over and had tears in his eyes. The next minute, the comedian was making fun of Jews and the Jewish man was seething in anger.

Now I ask a hypothetical question:

The Jewish man died that night in his mocking, unbelief in Jesus. Was he saved?

I guess that it will have to do if that man accepts Jesus as his Savior, believes in Him and serves Him...!

 

[MarcR]

Rom 11:1-8
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
KJV


Rom 11:11-21
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
KJV


Rom 11:25-33
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
KJV


God has addressed Israel in the height of apostasy saying: Hos 2:6-23
6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the Lord.14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. KJV

Jer 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. KJV

Note that this covenant is made with Israel and Judah, NOT WITH THE CHURCH.

The Church is indeed included; but only by virtue of her adoption into Judah.

 

[resurrection33]

Dear brethren,

I have some questions I´d like to see clarified biblically speaking. Although this subject may be highly debatable, I have no interest for it to be problematic. And I must clearly state that, thank God, I don´t hate nor even have any king of negative sentiments toward Jews. I feel compassion for them.

The question here is that some state that God´s covenant is irrevocable, others state that they were no longer God´s chosen people in the end of O.T., others that they stopped being when they rejected Christ.


Having said this, here are my questions (would ask for biblical support, please):


- a) Are Jews still God´s chosen people?
- b) If not, are we (Christians) His chosen people, now?
- c) Will the Jews have any kind of role in the future, and can they be saved?


Thank you, dear brothers and sisters!


God bless you!

I would say that the Lord's chosen people are the ones who've chosen the Lord - the ones who obey his commandments.