Who is the antiChrist?

[Straightshot]

YES AGREED. However, there will be no snatching away for the church


Not true for sure

I would suggest that you rethink your position on this one and to study the issue without your current bias

It is going to happen and all of the related scriptures taken together plus those with the proof verify

I will tell you what I see that might be dangerous for you if you continue to refute the Lord's promise on this issue

.... I do not know you so I have no idea where you stand

Satan is the one that promotes the idea .... because he knows that if humans can be lead away from this truth this will present not only doubt, but laxity for those who think that they are believers and are not .... the professing church is full of the same today

When the "snatch" comes with no warning they will find themselves in the tribulation where Satan will be waiting [Revelation 12:12]

..... His objective will be to deceive them and destroy them before they figure out what happened to them .... if they do not repent and turn to the Lord .... the devil scores [Revelation 3:15-19]

There are those false teachers who have come and said that the Lord's "harpazo" action to "snatch" His true ecclesia is a lie of the devil

Just the opposite is true ..... the lie that Satan promotes is ..... no snatching ....so forget about it

 

[Straightshot]

Do not forget that it is Satan who will be allowed to bring his mimic "antichrist"

And this devil wants to destroy as many as he can in the tribulation before he meets his own trip to the abyss

He is the liar [Genesis 3] and his game to call the Lord the same on the issue of the His intent to keep His ecclesia living at the time from His own unprecedented judgment [these do not need to be judged by His wrath], and to keep them from the devil's biting in the process

Those who do turn to Him in the tribulation are going to have a rough go of it ..... they will most likely loose their heads

The Lord will save those who turn, but He will not keep them from the wiles of the tribulation and the devil's vexations

 

[PlainWord]

They push the Lord's involvement to the end of the same thereby eliminating His judgment that He will bring Himself .... they say "Satan's judgment"

The Lord is only going to intervene on once ..... before, and not after His time of trial and judgment

Any problem with the post tribulation view?

There is .... first of all is the refutation that the Lord will come suddenly with no warning

Those in the tribulation will have ample warning leading up to His appearance at the end of the "days" of the tribulation

That the Lord is not going to rule over a kingdom of the surviving mortals of the tribulation period .... the PT says no way .... the prophets give a different view

I don't know if you are talking to me (likely) but you have totally mis-characterized my views.

1. Nowhere have I eliminated the Lord's judgment. It is coming and it will be overwhelming. But it comes at the end, after and in response to Satan's Tribulation. God's judgment begins at the 1st Bowl and continues through Armageddon.

2. The Lord is coming once and putting a stop to Satan's deception and violence. The Lord's wrath is targeted aimed specifically at the Beast and his followers. This is crystal clear.

3. Indeed the Lord comes suddenly and nobody will know the day or hour. For those of us "alive and remaining" we will be anxiously waiting and crying out for Him to come although He will bear long with us. (Luk 18:8, Rev 6:10). Ample warning? What ample warning?

4. Of course there will be mortals left when Christ returns. Who said otherwise? Rev 14:13 makes this clear as well as some passages in Ezek and Isaiah. I'm not one who thinks that everyone is changed the moment Christ returns. Let's be clear - there is no passage that states we are all changed associated with the Return of Christ.

So many people think there is a changing at this time but nowhere in 1 or 2 Thessalonians is a changing of the living taught. Nowhere in the Olivet does Jesus teach this either. Only a gathering is taught. People tend to lump 1 Cor 15:50-58 together with 1 Thes 4:13-18. I don't. Paul is clear the LAST ENEMY CHRIST DEFEATS IS DEATH. IT ISN'T THE FIRST ENEMY HE DEFEATS.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I wouldn't say the entire Bible? Parts....?
I'm curious as why you don't see Revelation as primarily spoken in figurative language? One can still believe the scripture says/means exactly what it says literally throughout the Bible-- basically up until Rev? From lampstands to beasts, to dragons and so on, the rest of the Bible is a set up/key to figuring out what all the visions mean throughout Revelation.

Even in Revelation he gives us certain keys.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.

Why would we assume He would change the 'definition' of a lampstand on us, especially in the middle of the Book?

Lampstands=Churches. This eliminates any possibility that the two witnesses can be people?

Rev 11: 3-4
3.And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The key to understanding Revelation is out there.
Am I off here?

I see where you get your interpretation from and from looking at it like this would understand your conclusion.
But to actually understand what the two witnesses are you have to refer back to Zechariah 4 for your answer.
It clearly states in this chapter that they are the two anointed ones.

 

[PlainWord]

YES AGREED. However, there will be no snatching away for the church


Not true for sure

I would suggest that you rethink your position on this one and to study the issue without your current bias

It is going to happen and all of the related scriptures taken together plus those with the proof verify

I will tell you what I see that might be dangerous for you if you continue to refute the Lord's promise on this issue

.... I do not know you so I have no idea where you stand

Satan is the one that promotes the idea .... because he knows that if humans can be lead away from this truth this will present not only doubt, but laxity for those who think that they are believers and are not .... the professing church is full of the same today

When the "snatch" comes with no warning they will find themselves in the tribulation where Satan will be waiting [Revelation 12:12]

..... His objective will be to deceive them and destroy them before they figure out what happened to them .... if they do not repent and turn to the Lord .... the devil scores [Revelation 3:15-19]

There are those false teachers who have come and said that the Lord's "harpazo" action to "snatch" His true ecclesia is a lie of the devil

Just the opposite is true ..... the lie that Satan promotes is ..... no snatching ....so forget about it

WOW> You have it completely backwards. The Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a lie of Satan. It is designed to deceive the Church into thinking Christ comes first before the Man of Sin. If this truly was the case (which it isn't and no pre-trib timing can be found anywhere) then no Christian will be here for the Man of Sin to deceive.

Paul locates the Return of Christ AFTER the appearance of the Man of Sin.
Christ locates HIS return AFTER the Tribulation of those days.

You also state that we must believe in the Pre-Trib in order to be "snatched" otherwise we will be left behind??? Where is that taught??? My friend, virtually nothing you state is Biblical concerning the Return of Christ. You have twisted the Word to fit your unBiblical Pre-Trib view just as Peter taught would happen.

For the Man of Sin to deceive Christians and get them to think he is Christ, he must persuade Christians into thinking the real Christ comes first. This is just common sense. If the real Christ came first and everyone sees Him, how could the Man of Sin fool anybody?? Those who see Christ (which is everyone) will know that the Man of Sin isn't Christ.

One thing I've learned is Pre-Tribbers have so swallowed up Satan's lie about what is really taught that they cannot ever be shown the error of their thinking. Paul was right. They have been sent a strong delusion so that they believe the lie.

 

[Straightshot]

They will be two of the Lord's prophets standing for truth during the last half of the tribulation ..... in Jerusalem

... right in the face of the beast, before he kills them

But then .... surprise .... the devil looses again

 

[kennethcadwell]

They will be two of the Lord's prophets standing for truth during the last half of the tribulation ..... in Jerusalem

... right in the face of the beast, before he kills them

But then .... surprise .... the devil looses again

Yes they are two prophets, not two churches because it clearly says how they will be dressed and then goes further to say that their dead bodies will lay out in the streets while the world celebrates over their death.

The other debate I see going on is about the rapture and rather it is pre-trib or post trib. The lie about the rapture that satan has done is turn this into a salvation issue. Rather you believe before or after the tribulation is not a salvation issue. The fact is if you have true faith in the Lord you will be caught up when it happens no matter where you believe it will happen.
Being caught up in the rapture depends on your faith and belief in Him, not when the rapture happens.
The great lie is making it a salvation issue.

 

[PlainWord]

Do not forget that it is Satan who will be allowed to bring his mimic "antichrist"

And this devil wants to destroy as many as he can in the tribulation before he meets his own trip to the abyss

He is the liar [Genesis 3] and his game to call the Lord the same on the issue of the His intent to keep His ecclesia living at the time from His own unprecedented judgment [these do not need to be judged by His wrath], and to keep them from the devil's biting in the process

Those who do turn to Him in the tribulation are going to have a rough go of it ..... they will most likely loose their heads

The Lord will save those who turn, but He will not keep them from the wiles of the tribulation and the devil's vexations

I'm glad you brought up Gen 3.

3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' "

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Eve had the truth - If you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. But Satan told her a version that was 180 degrees from the truth - i.e. You will not surely die. Satan goes on to make the "bad" promise of death for disobedience into a good promise - "you will be like God."

The same thing is happening here with this debate. Christ tells us clearly that He comes AFTER the Tribulation. PAUL tells us that the Man of Sin comes first. Christ tells us "you will endure tribulation and be hated for my name sake." We are shown a great multitude of believers in heaven who "come out of" the Great Tribulation. Satan has twisted this around getting you to think that his tribulation is Gods and that you will be flown off to heaven and not suffer persecution and death. Why? So he can deceive you into a false sense of security and worse - so that you will follow him when he comes claiming to be God.

The Tribulation has already started (we are in the early stages) but you don't even recognize it because you don't expect to be here. Sad.

 

[PlainWord]

The other debate I see going on is about the rapture and rather it is pre-trib or post trib. The lie about the rapture that satan has done is turn this into a salvation issue. Rather you believe before or after the tribulation is not a salvation issue. The fact is if you have true faith in the Lord you will be caught up when it happens no matter where you believe it will happen.
Being caught up in the rapture depends on your faith and belief in Him, not when the rapture happens.
The great lie is making it a salvation issue.

Good for you Kenneth. You are 100% correct on the above. We disagree over the timing, not the existence of the "rapture." I see certain elements of the "rapture" differently but there is no doubt that Christ will return and gather us and defeat evil. The how and when are in debate but as you say, those are not salvation issues.

Even the unbeliever can be saved at the end of the Tribulation when they see the Lord if they call upon His name. That is a promise.

• Romans 10:13 NKJV
  
  For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
  
  Revelation 14 teaches the below even after Christ returns.
  
  7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
  
  So if people can still worship Him, they must still be able to be saved. The only cut off from the chance to be saved is death. Once dead, it is game over. God does not wish that any should perish.

 

[Straightshot]

No comment for you PW

... I see many errors in your thinking

Study on .... time is of the essence

 

[popeye]

Mahdi? .... this is what the Muslims call the one that is coming

White horse? .... I don't think so .... this one will not need a horse

His power and capacity will come from Satan [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

Don't believe everything you hear pop

"White horse" is a symbol of the rider's stride

Here is the Lord Himself [Revelation 6:2; 19:11-16]

The red horse is Satan's and his beast

Don't believe everything you hear pop

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

I do not make statements or draw conclusions from where you position yourself.
"riders stride" is 100% conjecture,and if I were to assign satan to a single "horse/horseman" it would be the "death and hell horse" I doubt you know the color since it would also be relegated to the vast manufactured typology recklessly assigned anti-types.
Basically taking the depth of the clarity of heaven and assigning the next handiest supposition
From hopeofisrael.com;

When an army bearing black flags comes from the East from the area of Khorasan (in Iran) or from central Asia, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent. When he appears riding on a white horse (literally or symbolically Muslims see the Mahdi as fulfilling the description of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6) he will lead the army to re-conquer Israel.

To poo poo clear fact based statements and verses is strange indeed.

260 × 383 - dealbreaker.com


b

 

[Jackson123]

The coming of the Son on the cloud is happen after tribulation/post-trib.

[h=1]Matthew 24:29-30King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[popeye]

The coming of the Son on the cloud is happen after tribulation/post-trib.

Matthew 24:29-30King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

King James Version (KJV)

Correct. Postribs and pretribs both agree with this.
No telling what preterists make of it.

 

[PlainWord]

No comment for you PW

... I see many errors in your thinking

Study on .... time is of the essence

Sorry friend. I used to think as you until I studied for years and could find no evidence of the Lord returning before the Tribulation. I was about your age when my eyes were opened. Hopefully your eyes will open too before its too late. Your entire theory is a house of cards based on assumptions and mis-applied scripture. But I still love you in the Lord and wish you well.

 

[PlainWord]

I can see a lot of confusion out there about the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Far too many see them all as occurring during some 7 year period they call "the Great Tribulation." One needs to understand what these seals, trumpets and bowls are to gain a full understanding of what's coming.

The seals "seal" the scroll. The scroll is rolled up with writing on the inside and back and sealed by the seals. This part should be universally accepted. Once one learns that almost the entire book of Revelation is devoted to the rise and fall of the false religion, the kingdoms that have supported it and that this religion started at the Tower of Babel all the way back to Nimrod then one can start to gain a true prospective for events to come.

This false religion has taken on many names in the past but all involve worship of the sun, moon and stars. From Baal, to Diana to now Islam, they all followed the same Satanic symbol, the star and crescent. They all worship this stone that fell from the sky accredited back to Abraham and Ishmael. This stone today is called the Kaaba Stone and it is now located in MECCA. Before that it moved around a bit from conqueror to conqueror. In Paul's day it was in Ephesus (Acts 19:34-35). This worship of an image was present in Babylon and was erected by Nebuchadnezzar. All had to fall down and worship it when they heard the "music." This method of worship is exactly the same way the Muslims worship at MECCA or wherever they are they face MECCA and fall down to pray to their false god ALLAH and the Stone that fell from heaven.

By John's day 6 Beast Empires had come with one remaining which becomes mortally wounded yet lives. This 7th Beast Empire will be comprised of Turkey and it's allies. Daniel sees this BEAST as the last and most terrible. As it was with Daniel so it was with John. He goes to great length describing what will happen at the end before Christ returns. Therefore the seals of the scroll that Christ opens show the progression of the LAST BEAST empire (#7 and #8 which is of the 7).

Seal 1 is the conquest of Muhammad (early 600s AD) and the formation of ISLAM as the dominate false religion of the end times.
Seal 2 is the OTTOMAN empire (1299 to 1923). It's flag with the star and crescent was red then, as it is in Turkey today.
Seal 3 is the rise of the rich Arab oil merchants. The Saudi kings trade with the world and become rich while they engage in sex slavery and starve their own people.
Seal 4 is the rebirth or healing of the Ottoman empire. They take peace from 1/4 of the earth and they kill using all the various means mentioned. This indeed is the Great Tribulation all of it, right here in this seal but more details follow in the trumpets.
Seal 5 shows all the souls in heaven killed by the BEAST crying out for vengeance.
Seal 6 shows the pending return of Christ and the fear of the wicked over His coming judgments.
Seal 7 opens the scroll completely so that more detail can be given.

On one side of the scroll contains the trumpets, the other side the Bowl Judgments. The Trumpets are spiritual, not literal, and they provide more detail about this final BEAST. The 6th Trumpet is Armageddon. Christ returns for this war to wage it and win it. By the 7th trumpet the mystery of God would be finished and the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of God and His Lamb and they shall reign forever and ever.

The Bowls show more detail of the 6th trumpet - The Wrath of the Lamb which is found also in the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th Bowl and these all are Armageddon. By 7-7-7 it is all over. The Bowls are all Spiritual too and they are God's wrath.

Other chapters in Revelation such as 7, 10-11, 13, 15, 17-18 provide even more detail of all the same events, the seals, trumps and bowls. For instance, Revelation 13 provides a ton of information about the 4th seal which is the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12 shows the Epic battle between Satan and Christ. Rev 14 picks up with Christ having returned, through His wrath and defeat of Satan to the reaping of the earth and judgment.

The 7 churches of Asia Minor are all warned specifically and by name about what is coming to their descendants. This is no coincidence. All of these churches are located in Turkey which is the seat of Satan from which the Man of Sin will come and from where persecution of these churches will be greatest (except for Philadelphia which will be kept from this trial). Turkey is the location of the Garden of Eden and where Noah's Ark came to rest.