Whose Steps Does God Establish?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#1
Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” It is generally held that this passage applies to those of us who would strive for righteousness, such that whatever plans we have toward that end, God provides the steps to take.

What about those who’ve turned their back on God, or ignored Him? What does God have in store for them? God has planned their steps too, but not the same steps God has provided for the righteous. They are peripheral to those who strive for righteousness, and a passage of the bible that applies to them, albeit indirectly, is Romans 8:28. That passage says, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Under that passage, God establishes the steps of the evil, leading them to their deaths so they may do no further harm to those who are believers in God.

For instance, God had a good portion of Hitler’s troops driven deep into Russia, so they perished there in the cold, resulting in Hitler being greatly weakened so the Allies could prevail against him. It was for the sake of goodness that they perished. Under Romans 8:28, goodness prevails.

God created all of us, but does He know all of us? The Bible implies that he knows those who have striven for goodness. Jeremiah 1:5 says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Psalm 139:13-16 says, “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.”

Would God spend such time creating individuals for the purpose of doing evil? He created everyone toward goodness, but when people turn away from Him or ignore Him, they are on their own, and will only come to God’s attention when it is time for them to die. The great Egyptians, who enslaved the Hebrews, are no longer around. The Roman empire, who, in their ignorance of the one true God crucified Jesus, is no longer around. Similarly, the Third Reich is no longer around. Their vestiges may become visible every now and them, but they end up being used for another of God’s purposes for the sake of the righteous.

Matthew 6:10 acknowledges God in saying, “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” God’s Will goes toward goodness. Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will…” Those who turn away or ignore the steps God has provided for them, for the sake of any goodness which may exist in their hearts, do so at their own peril.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,721
13,393
113
#2
"Why would God spend such time creating individuals for the purpose of doing evil?"

Much has been written on this subject, by Christians and by philosophers. One answer with which I'm comfortable comes from William Lane Craig (perhaps not originally): that God created this world in such a way that the amount of evil and suffering is actually the least that could be achieved and still allow God to accomplish His good plan. It's speculative, but it upholds the goodness of God, which many other answers to the problem of theodicy fail to do.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#3
"Why would God spend such time creating individuals for the purpose of doing evil?"

Much has been written on this subject, by Christians and by philosophers. One answer with which I'm comfortable comes from William Lane Craig (perhaps not originally): that God created this world in such a way that the amount of evil and suffering is actually the least that could be achieved and still allow God to accomplish His good plan. It's speculative, but it upholds the goodness of God, which many other answers to the problem of theodicy fail to do.
Seems to be taken from Leibniz and his "Best world hypothesis".

Evil and good is so perfectly balanced that if one atom of evil would be taken away, the creation as such would be less perfect.

Like taking away of one lower tone would make a symphony less beautiful.
 
Aug 11, 2018
18
20
3
#4
Proverbs 16:14 comes to mind. "God made everything work for his purpose, the wicked for the day of disaster." However, in my estimation, understanding what Job's advisor (Elihu) was relying when job was being tested by the devil gives us a more accurate view of the role Satan, God, and our own imperfections play in the outworking of God's will. "It is unthinkable for God to act wickedly, for the Almighty to do wrong."(Job 34:10) God is a god of Justice, so when the wicked or righteous person transgresses, they are liable to punishment and/or correction by God who sets the standard of right and wrong as the sovereign of the universe. Divine justice, which God pours out as mercy for the righteous, and punishment for the wicked is not evil. I don't personally believe that God can act evil (According to the scriptures). I believe God allows evil as the justification for his right to rule as the sovereign of the universe in order to quell all questions concerning his wisdom and sovereignty. He allows a God of wickedness to rule over the earth as an alternative to himself (in the moment). Punishment of the wicked is the law of requite or reciprocation due to original sin, the influence of Satan, plus our personal transgressions. (Divine Justice).

It's my firm belief that God has a master plan for the righteous and wicked, but allows the wicked to fall into the hand of Satan as well as their own short sightedness. (Ecc 9:11) points to "time and unforeseen events" that can affect everyone. This is a symptom of a world governed by Satan and will not be apart of Christ's future reign. God allows us to make our own decisions, live our lives how we choose, but for the Christian we allow God to establish our steps...Like Newton stated. God wants us to be intelligent, wise beings, capable of making decisions in our own best interest according to his will. Some Christians die in car wrecks for example, as well as some atheists lead productive and comfortable lives. This is not because God is directing this, it is because God allows things to happen momentarily because we are all being tested, saved, or condemned in an imperfect system of things because of the universal question of God's right to rule. In my opinion, life is like a chess match between the devil and God. Even though the devil knows that he will lose, he plays to bring down as many Christians as possible by setting traps for them. If, and only If we choose to live our lives according to God's will, we are rescued from the snares of the devil (spiritually). Yet, in an imperfect world, even righteous men have had their lives cut short in wicked ways. God is not the cause of this, but will surely end it when both the full number of righteous men and women are saved, and the Angels and mankind in general have irrefutable proof that God has the right to rule questionably.
 

blueluna5

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2018
538
322
63
#5
You can't always take the opposite of a passage to be true... Usually not. It's not always as easy as the opposite of up is down type of thing.

Also I'm not sure why you think God doesn't deal with people who ignore him until they die. As someone who has ignored God and tried to flee I would say that's not true. God is persistent.... extremely persistent. As if Everytime you say no, he says "alright love, next time then." He does not stop until you turn back to him.... In my experience anyhow.

In another example I've seen atheists who have literally laughed in my face when mentioning God believe in God. This is with me not even doing anything but praying for them to get saved. So anything is possible.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#6
Without brokenness there is no rebuilding
Without affliction there is no healing
Without suffering there is no rejoicing
Without pain there is no rest.
Without death there is no life.

The Lord controls all for his glory as he sees the end from the beginning.
 
Aug 11, 2018
18
20
3
#7
You can't always take the opposite of a passage to be true... Usually not. It's not always as easy as the opposite of up is down type of thing.

Also I'm not sure why you think God doesn't deal with people who ignore him until they die. As someone who has ignored God and tried to flee I would say that's not true. God is persistent.... extremely persistent. As if Everytime you say no, he says "alright love, next time then." He does not stop until you turn back to him.... In my experience anyhow.

In another example I've seen atheists who have literally laughed in my face when mentioning God believe in God. This is with me not even doing anything but praying for them to get saved. So anything is possible.
When we say that god is in control of everything, we may fall into the trap of believing in predestination. God has a plan for salvation for everyone who wants it. But it is up to us to accept it. He doesn't force anyone to love him. In fact, if he did it would be considered a violation of his law. god is a god a mercy, so he gives us chances, but as the scriptures say, each man must carry his own weight and work out his own salvation. What do you mean by "God doesn't deal with people who ignore him until they die" is this the hellfire doctrine you are alluding to?
 

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#8
... What do you mean by "God doesn't deal with people who ignore him until they die" ....
***What I mean is, God does not help anyone unless He is asked. There is no place in the Bible in which God helped those who didn't ask for His help. It was always in response to being asked. Some may argue that Jesus healed people that didn't ask to be healed...but his healing power came from God, who gave it to Jesus because Jesus believed in Him.

What I also mean is, nonbelievers are ignored by God, until they commit acts of evil. Then they come to God's attention.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,677
13,134
113
#9
There is no place in the Bible in which God helped those who didn't ask for His help.
not at all to say in any way that He does not give to the one who asks, but . . .

I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
(Isaiah 65:1)
I am not a prophet, nor am I the son of a prophet; for I am a herdsman and a grower of sycamore figs. But the LORD took me from following the flock and the LORD said to me, ‘Go prophesy to My people Israel.’
(Amos 7:14-15)
When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
(Matthew 27:54)
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?
(Acts 9:3-4)
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
(John 15:16)


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,677
13,134
113
#10
What I also mean is, nonbelievers are ignored by God, until they commit acts of evil. Then they come to God's attention.
how long does it typically take after any human is born before they begin to do evil?
have you ever met an infant who wasn't selfish & vain ..


how good, then, that His eye is on us almost immediately :)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#11
how long does it typically take after any human is born before they begin to do evil?
have you ever met an infant who wasn't selfish & vain ..


how good, then, that His eye is on us almost immediately :)
Yeah, children (and probably we can say that about animals, to some measure) are obviously evil from the beginning.

The question is, if they are guilty. As Paul says, sins without a law do not count. And to comprehend a law requires some level of human intellect...