The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'
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Concerning Acts 2 - When a person is born again, spiritually, God exchanges their heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezk 36:26) that can be "pricked" to feel guilty of breaking God's law, indicating that they were already born again. (Act 2:37-38) (Psalms 73:21).
Verse 38 - Peter instructed these Jews, who were born again, to be baptized "for=unto" the remission of sins, which was accomplished on the cross for those that the Father called, and gave to Jesus (Matt 26:28) (John 6:37) (Acts 2:39)
Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized. 1 Cor 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know hem, because they are spiritually discerned. (Rom 8:7)
Concerning "hear, believe, repent" - Only those who are already God's born again sheep, can hear his voice, and believe in spiritual things, and have the new heart that can be pricked to feel guilty, and repent of breaking one of God's laws (John 10:26-29).
Hi @Everlasting-Grace 
Thank you for a good question.
Saul’s will was to prevent the spreading of the gospel by persecuting those determined to spread it. AFTER being stopped in His tracks by a blinding light and hearing the very voice of Jesus Christ (not an experience Saul chose for himself), and after learning of God’s purpose for him, and after being given a new name, Paul chose to obey, just as we must do today. Paul was most definitely chosen (elect) for a specific purpose to help build the church.; he certainly had no desire to further the cause of Christ as he began his journey that day. I think it’s best to read what Paul had to say about his own conversion and what the Lord had to say to him that day:
Acts 26:12-23 (New King James Version)
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
So I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for
I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Thank you for a good question.Saul’s will was to prevent the spreading of the gospel by persecuting those determined to spread it. AFTER being stopped in His tracks by a blinding light and hearing the very voice of Jesus Christ (not an experience Saul chose for himself), and after learning of God’s purpose for him, and after being given a new name, Paul chose to obey, just as we must do today. Paul was most definitely chosen (elect) for a specific purpose to help build the church.; he certainly had no desire to further the cause of Christ as he began his journey that day. I think it’s best to read what Paul had to say about his own conversion and what the Lord had to say to him that day:
Acts 26:12-23 (New King James Version)
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
So I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for
I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Saul, when persecuting the church, said he did it "in all good conscience", thinking he was doing God's will, which tells me that he had already been born again. Saul, who became Paul, when struck by the bright light was told by God that it was hard for Saul to "kick against the pricks". Because his heart was being "pricked" by God, which also indicates that he had already been born again.
For it is God, which worketh in those who have been born again, both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil 2;13). So we, who are born again, cannot take credit, by our own means, in the choices we make. God gets the credit.
Romans 1 tells us that what you are saying here, is simply not true
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
this Calvinistic teaching that the Holy Spirit enters a person in order for them to be saved is not in scripture
now I am sure you do not wish to contradict scripture, but these teachings you espouse do that very thing
quoting Romans 8:7, does not infer that God forces people to believe. Calvinists will tell you that scripture must be 'harmonized' but Romans 1 contradicts your harmonizing. If no one ever felt drawn to God, as it seems you are saying here, then no one would be saved because a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until they accept Christ
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
this Calvinistic teaching that the Holy Spirit enters a person in order for them to be saved is not in scripture
now I am sure you do not wish to contradict scripture, but these teachings you espouse do that very thing
quoting Romans 8:7, does not infer that God forces people to believe. Calvinists will tell you that scripture must be 'harmonized' but Romans 1 contradicts your harmonizing. If no one ever felt drawn to God, as it seems you are saying here, then no one would be saved because a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until they accept Christ
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Look, I know you are a Calvinist and this thread has probably run the course for which it was intended so I won't object to yet another discussion on what appears to be the favorite topic of so many (not mine though lol)
well I have/read plenty from Calvinists but this is a first. are you joking? do you understand how a person is saved?
I can't even
well I have/read plenty from Calvinists but this is a first. are you joking? do you understand how a person is saved?
I can't even
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Ezekiel 36:26 explains what God does when he quickens a person to be born again, saying "a new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you"
1 Cor 2:14 states that the natural ma receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This tells me that your interpretation of Romans 1 is simply not true. Because, that which may be known of God is not manifest in them. If the natural man cannot receive spiritual things, how can he "hold the truth in unrighteousness," if they cannot know a spiritual God?
Accepting Christ is not the cause of anyone's eternal salvation, but is a work of a person that has already been born again spiritually.
Christ died to remit the sins, only of those that his Father gave him, and his sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.
Romans 1 is referencing disobedient children of God, and his chastening upon them, not the natural man. Your miss- interpretation of Romans 1 may be because you are not accepting that our fleshly nature is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). You will never understand the grace of God, until you understand just how unrighteous we are by nature.
1 Cor 2:14 states that the natural ma receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This tells me that your interpretation of Romans 1 is simply not true. Because, that which may be known of God is not manifest in them. If the natural man cannot receive spiritual things, how can he "hold the truth in unrighteousness," if they cannot know a spiritual God?
Accepting Christ is not the cause of anyone's eternal salvation, but is a work of a person that has already been born again spiritually.
Christ died to remit the sins, only of those that his Father gave him, and his sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.
Romans 1 is referencing disobedient children of God, and his chastening upon them, not the natural man. Your miss- interpretation of Romans 1 may be because you are not accepting that our fleshly nature is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). You will never understand the grace of God, until you understand just how unrighteous we are by nature.
Look, I know you are a Calvinist and this thread has probably run the course for which it was intended so I won't object to yet another discussion on what appears to be the favorite topic of so many (not mine though lol)
well I have/read plenty from Calvinists but this is a first. are you joking? do you understand how a person is saved?
I can't even
well I have/read plenty from Calvinists but this is a first. are you joking? do you understand how a person is saved?
I can't even
I am afraid that it is you that dose not understand that eternal salvation was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross. Period!
Eternal salvation was finished on the cross for all of those that his Father gave him, (John 6:37-39) and there will be no other offering for mankind to accept.
Isaiah 65:24
Before they call I will answer;
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
Before they call I will answer;
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
God alone has this capacity and ability...
Its foreign to our ways of doing things.
That is why we need to grow in grace and knowledge,
so we do not walk around in a daze trying to adjust
without knowing what's going on.
Isaiah 55:8
The Lord says, “My thoughts are not like your thoughts.
Your ways are not like my ways.
The Lord says, “My thoughts are not like your thoughts.
Your ways are not like my ways.
False doctrine finds its appeal in the ways and thoughts of men being attributed to God....
grace and peace ........
That is correct. and they responded to Peter, and the rest of the apostles, by saying, "Men and brethren, what must we do?
God had already exchanged their heart of stone to a heart of flesh that could feel guilt. In Acts 7, when hearing Stephen preach the same sermon, the men who still had the heart of stone responded in a very different way, by being "cut to the heart" and gnashed on him with their teeth.
God had already exchanged their heart of stone to a heart of flesh that could feel guilt. In Acts 7, when hearing Stephen preach the same sermon, the men who still had the heart of stone responded in a very different way, by being "cut to the heart" and gnashed on him with their teeth.
pardon me there Forest, but you will never understand how sure a person's actual salvation is until you understand how they got there in the first place which is not through an OT prophecy given through Ezekiel.
Again, I know you are a Calvinist...and your main intent around the forum seems to be to attempt to indoctrinate any and all because let's face it, this forum can be, to some people, an ideal place to get on a soapbox and put themself on blast to a captive audience
the UNSAVED person does not understand spiritual things....does not mean a person is prefilled with the Spirit of God so they can accept Christ.
and here we have Calvinism at it's best worst. A dyed in the wool Calvinist will tell you that non-Calvinists believe they save themselves because they are not saved through irresistable grace, but here, we see who really teaches that a person saves themself.
no Forest. we are not filled with the Holy Spirit in order to enable us to accept Christ. that is not to be found in scripture anywhere whatsoever. the Holy Spirit seals a person when they accept Christ.
In Christ you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
Again, I know you are a Calvinist...and your main intent around the forum seems to be to attempt to indoctrinate any and all because let's face it, this forum can be, to some people, an ideal place to get on a soapbox and put themself on blast to a captive audience
the UNSAVED person does not understand spiritual things....does not mean a person is prefilled with the Spirit of God so they can accept Christ.
and here we have Calvinism at it's best worst. A dyed in the wool Calvinist will tell you that non-Calvinists believe they save themselves because they are not saved through irresistable grace, but here, we see who really teaches that a person saves themself.
no Forest. we are not filled with the Holy Spirit in order to enable us to accept Christ. that is not to be found in scripture anywhere whatsoever. the Holy Spirit seals a person when they accept Christ.
In Christ you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
oh here we go again with false assumptions
but I never discussed salvation with you Forest, so please let's stick to the facts and not try to create some rabbit hole for you to divert through
what you say here is true, but how do you say salvation is accomplished?
do you express it this way:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
or this way
do we accept Christ the way the Bible says we do or do we accept Christ, after according to you, we are already saved?
I know what you believe and it is not John 3:16. you teach that a person is only saved AFTER God places His Spirit within that person . The Bible does not say that.
No one is filled with the Holy Spirit who has not accepted Christ
but I never discussed salvation with you Forest, so please let's stick to the facts and not try to create some rabbit hole for you to divert through
what you say here is true, but how do you say salvation is accomplished?
do you express it this way:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
or this way
do we accept Christ the way the Bible says we do or do we accept Christ, after according to you, we are already saved?
I know what you believe and it is not John 3:16. you teach that a person is only saved AFTER God places His Spirit within that person . The Bible does not say that.
No one is filled with the Holy Spirit who has not accepted Christ
Problems with Calvinism
Calvinists believe God has pre-determined who will go to hell and who will go to heaven.
Basically, the Calvinist will explain to you that God creates some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. No one has any choice in the matter. Of course this flies in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it also creates a problem with the Old Testament since throughtout the OT, the Israelites are told to choose. God says over and over again, choose whom you will serve.
God has not shape shifted into something different than how He represents Himself in the OT. According to scripture, God does not change who He is. When Moses asked His name, God replied I AM THAT I AM, present tense. God is constant. He does not change.
For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob Malachi 3:6
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17
and God is not willing for anyone to die and go to hell. He did not create some humans to go to hell. That is a smear on the character of God.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. II Peter 3: 8-9
Calvinists believe God has pre-determined who will go to hell and who will go to heaven.
Basically, the Calvinist will explain to you that God creates some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. No one has any choice in the matter. Of course this flies in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it also creates a problem with the Old Testament since throughtout the OT, the Israelites are told to choose. God says over and over again, choose whom you will serve.
God has not shape shifted into something different than how He represents Himself in the OT. According to scripture, God does not change who He is. When Moses asked His name, God replied I AM THAT I AM, present tense. God is constant. He does not change.
For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob Malachi 3:6
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17
and God is not willing for anyone to die and go to hell. He did not create some humans to go to hell. That is a smear on the character of God.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. II Peter 3: 8-9
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You did not have to discuss it with him.
Might be?
He simply could not wait to tell others what he was told is truth, and picked you to drop it on.
Or, he just misunderstood you somehow?
must give a benefit of a doubt until a trend can be established.
Might be?
He simply could not wait to tell others what he was told is truth, and picked you to drop it on.
Or, he just misunderstood you somehow?
must give a benefit of a doubt until a trend can be established.
his reply was par for the way some Calvinist will respond
he knows full well what he is doing but now he might have an excuse
I was not misunderstood. I'm going to leave the thread because I have participated in enough Calvin doctrine threads to be somewhat sickened by and of them by now
but I should know that when one is gone another will take up the empty place
and I'm not playingThanks