God and Time

[cv5]

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.

Gen 3:9
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Something else to think about: God NEVER asks a question that He does not already know the answer to.....

Entering into time, and engaging with His creation in a conversation is for THEIR SAKE.
Same goes for when God enters the realm of time......for judgement. God's judgement is good and merciful and just.

 

[cv5]

If it is clear to you that God is atemporal, then how would you respond to idea that God seems to genuinely interact with humanity in time. Is this just a pretense?

No. It is love. God's love for the world and the creatures that He created.

 

[cv5]

There is no single traditional and biblicak understanding that has always been anything. Immutability and changelessness in God are not biblical and are one tradition among many others that see things differently.

The appeal to mystery to plug holes in a bad theory never looks good.

The idea here is that God's CHARACTER and righteousness never changes.
IMO.....if there are supposed mid-course corrections, they are from our perspective, being inside of time.

God is infinite and outside of time. We really cannot (and will not.....literally ever) fully grasp His mind, purposes and will.
And thank God for that!

Something to think about: we are gifted with reconciliation aka eternal life. But however long we exist in fellowship, it will never be an appreciable fraction of infinity. On the contrary, it will be......practically a zero sum. Forever.

 

[PaulThomson]

God, and Jesus DEFINE Themselves as outside of time, unequivocally.
Their self-description as "I AM" clearly declares Them and Them alone to be the only Beings who exist eternally in the present. Who consequently know the end from the beginning.

Exo 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.' ”

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am ("he" not in the text), ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not only that, They say that They ARE THE CREATORS of time itself. I am time and creation is the thrust here.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Nevertheless, the Trinity, Who created time, enter into Their creation, as a means to SAVE THEIR CREATURES.
An aspect of Their plan of salvation made before the foundation of time and creation, a plan made outside of time.

BTW.......God never needs new information......He has all of it already. Which is why Jesus is the ONLY One who can judge the world in perfect righteousness. He and the Trinity alone know everything there is to know about everything and everyone.

And yes, God created the lights which were a created cosmic clockworks......for OUR sake. For the sake of the creatures made of flesh.
I doubt that any of this newly created timekeeping apparatus is required for the angels.....it was created AFTER they had already been created.

Gen 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

I AM does not define one as outside of time. It defines one as in the present. To define themselves as exclusively outside of time, Jesus and God would need to say "I am exclusively outside of time."
To define themselves as both within and outside of time, Jesus and God would need to say "I am both within and outside of time."

 

[PaulThomson]

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What is the immediate context of Hebrews 13:8 telling the Hebrews? What is the authors point in Heb 13:5-10?

 

[Omegatime]

God from even the creation made time for man which he uses for describing parables and even his coming. I can assure you that at the end of the 6000th day the rapture/resurrection will happen

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What is the immediate context of Hebrews 13:8 telling the Hebrews? What is the authors point in Heb 13:5-10?

That Christ Jesus doesn’t change since the beginning that statement doesn’t really need context does it ? If someone or thing is the same forever it means it doesn’t change forever

abut the context is always what led up to and comes after statements

“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel of Jesus Christ whoch reveals him doesn’t change

 

[Chaps]

I appreciate your reply and the lively banter on this subject. However, in the end, with our limited knowledge, we are just floating ideas which we cannot prove - one way or the other. For the Lord Himself said:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And again:

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As to the word "foreknowledge", one needs to understand that the Greek word is a compound word made of two parts. The first is "before" and the second is "to know". Many have a misunderstanding of this word as it applies to God. It does not mean that God knew something before it happened but rather God "knew" of it always. Therefore God knew it before it happened because He knows all things. Thus, "foreknowledge" as it applies to God, speaks to His "intimate" knowledge of a thing and not to it's relationship to time. Only when viewed by creation, would one say it to be before it happened. In God's Mind it has already taken place. Unfortunately, for us to discuss the subject, we have to use "time" words because this is all we have ever known.

But to further illustrate the point, Let's take this example:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The Greek word here is: προέγνω which is an Aorist tense verb, thus pointing to past action. In this verse, it does not simply mean that God had some kind of knowledge of a person beforehand but rather that God had a "intimate" relationship with this person prior to creation. The Greek word used here, in it's context, doesn't simply mean "to know", as in knowledge but carries the meaning of intimacy - such as we would see in the OT. To know one was to be intimate with that one. Such as: Adam "knew" his wife.

Therefore, God had an intimate relationship with this person before He ever created this person. There was never a time when God did not know this person intimately and in knowing a person in this way is one and the same as the real thing in God's mind. Thus, in this way, time has no meaning to God as it does to us. In this same way, we see verses like:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

How could individuals be placed into Christ even before God created or Jesus was born?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Or how could it be said, that the names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and that Jesus Christ was considered "slain" from before creation?

I hope you understand the point I am making. It is difficult to articulate all of the details.

Thanks for the response. I fully understand that these things are weighty and I dont pretend to understand all the ways of God or that we are really even grasping the words we use when we imagine things such as eternity. However, I think it is an important topic to contemplate because I see many Christians who make a lot of a priori theological assumptions because they have never considered various views on God and time. They just assume God is timeless and therefore that their particular views on divine sovereignty must be true and obvious to all. I think it is just important for everyone to see that there are various other ways to consider the topic that are equally valid.

I think you are making a common mistake regarding your interpretation of the Greek. I see this regularly with preachers who will take a verb tense or the way a word is used in a particular place and then unload all these kinds of meanings onto the word in other instances to validate a theological position. That is not how language works. It is not how Greek works and it is not how English works. For instance, just because I may use the word “sick” to mean something was awesome or amazing doesn’t mean that is how the word is always or even typically used. The tense or the prefix on the word gnosis does not determine that the word means “intimate knowledge.” I can say, “that skateboard competition was sick.” The past tense of the verb doesn’t indicate if i am talking about illness or awe. The context determines this. Greek is no different. If we are going to make the argument that the word “knowledge” is referring to intimacy as it is sometime used in the Bible regarding a husband and wife, we need to allow the context to determine that, not the prefix or verb tense.

I am not going to go into a big Greek word study on gnosis. Suffice it to say that it does indicate a fuller understanding or knowledge of something in comparison to the word oida. However, it is simply just wrong to suggest the aorist tense or prefix indicates an ”intimate relationship.”

As to your question on how individuals could be placed into Christ prior to creation or their birth….

I think the simple answer to this is that God determined the rewards of the faithful at creation and knew beforehand who would believe. The suggestion that the Greek implies that God had a special intimate relationship with some of His creation that He predetermined to save whereas others he had no such relationship before creation is simply not valid. It simply means that God had a deep and full understanding of the faithful prior to their birth. He knew who would be faithful, not because he loved some and not others, but because he had a deep understanding of the faithful and how their lives would play out. For instance, God encouraged Satan to consider Job. Not because God had predetermined to make Job a certain way and mandate his future actions and salvation. Rather, God saw the kind of heart, character and faithfulness Job possessed and understood his faithfulness was not based on God’s protection or special favors (as Satan claimed). Thus, because God foreknew what kind of person Job was, he knew that he could endure the challenges and temptations Satan would unleash on his life. In fact, I would argue that your view of divine predetermination is more in line with Satan’s accusations against Job (God you have special protection and favor with Job!). How Job would respond with God NOT providing special love, favor and protection on Job is the issue at hand.

In sum, you are overstating your claims. The word tense and prefix does not mandate divine predetermination and love for some in contrast of others. And theologically, I don’t think the Bible supports this idea of God having special intimate love for some prior to creation and not others. Rather, God has predetermined the rewards of the faithful and has known beforehand those who would endure the challenges and temptations of the world faithfully both by his preknowledge of events and the character of the individuals who would face those events.

 

[PaulThomson]

He is telling the church to observe and remember the behaviour (KJ English :conversation) of their teachers

Thanks for the response. I fully understand that these things are weighty and I dont pretend to understand all the ways of God or that we are really even grasping the words we use when we imagine things such as eternity. However, I think it is an important topic to contemplate because I see many Christians who make a lot of a priori theological assumptions because they have never considered various views on God and time. They just assume God is timeless and therefore that their particular views on divine sovereignty must be true and obvious to all. I think it is just important for everyone to see that there are various other ways to consider the topic that are equally valid.

I think you are making a common mistake regarding your interpretation of the Greek. I see this regularly with preachers who will take a verb tense or the way a word is used in a particular place and then unload all these kinds of meanings onto the word in other instances to validate a theological position. That is not how language works. It is not how Greek works and it is not how English works. For instance, just because I may use the word “sick” to mean something was awesome or amazing doesn’t mean that is how the word is always or even typically used. The tense or the prefix on the word gnosis does not determine that the word means “intimate knowledge.” I can say, “that skateboard competition was sick.” The past tense of the verb doesn’t indicate if i am talking about illness or awe. The context determines this. Greek is no different. If we are going to make the argument that the word “knowledge” is referring to intimacy as it is sometime used in the Bible regarding a husband and wife, we need to allow the context to determine that, not the prefix or verb tense.

I am not going to go into a big Greek word study on gnosis. Suffice it to say that it does indicate a fuller understanding or knowledge of something in comparison to the word oida. However, it is simply just wrong to suggest the aorist tense or prefix indicates an ”intimate relationship.”

As to your question on how individuals could be placed into Christ prior to creation or their birth….

I think the simple answer to this is that God determined the rewards of the faithful at creation and knew beforehand who would believe. The suggestion that the Greek implies that God had a special intimate relationship with some of His creation that He predetermined to save whereas others he had no such relationship before creation is simply not valid. It simply means that God had a deep and full understanding of the faithful prior to their birth. He knew who would be faithful, not because he loved some and not others, but because he had a deep understanding of the faithful and how their lives would play out. For instance, God encouraged Satan to consider Job. Not because God had predetermined to make Job a certain way and mandate his future actions and salvation. Rather, God saw the kind of heart, character and faithfulness Job possessed and understood his faithfulness was not based on God’s protection or special favors (as Satan claimed). Thus, because God foreknew what kind of person Job was, he knew that he could endure the challenges and temptations Satan would unleash on his life. In fact, I would argue that your view of divine predetermination is more in line with Satan’s accusations against Job (God you have special protection and favor with Job!). How Job would respond with God NOT providing special love, favor and protection on Job is the issue at hand.

In sum, you are overstating your claims. The word tense and prefix does not mandate divine predetermination and love for some in contrast of others. And theologically, I don’t think the Bible supports this idea of God having special intimate love for some prior to creation and not others. Rather, God has predetermined the rewards of the faithful and has known beforehand those who would endure the challenges and temptations of the world faithfully both by his preknowledge of events and the character of the individuals who would face those events.

I agree that it is not context that is determining for awelight that foreknew means has a deep intimate relationship with. before creation. A relationship is a two way thing, and someone who does not exist but is anticipated cannot have an intimate relationship with the person anticipating them.

 

[PaulThomson]

That Christ Jesus doesn’t change since the beginning that statement doesn’t really need context does it ? If someone or thing is the same forever it means it doesn’t change forever

abut the context is always what led up to and comes after statements

“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel of Jesus Christ which reveals him doesn’t change

He is telling the church to observe and remember the behaviour/practice (KJ English :conversation) of the teachers who taught them the Gospel of grace and how Christ through their practice of the Way grace produced much good fruit. He encourages them that the Jesus who by grace made good and fruitful the lives of their teachers yesterday, is the same Jesus who by grace can make good and fruitful your lives today, and is the same Jesus who by grace will be able to make all believers from generations to come fruitful and good. So don't be side-tracked into follow a less gracious version of Christ than the one you have seen working in the church.

It is not an affirmation of a completely static divine nature which does not change in any way at all. He does not point the Hebrews to consider back to Adam and Eve and say, "Jesus Christ is the same at the foundation of the world, today and forever." The Son's way of working in people's lives has changed through the incarnation. But He has been working the same way in people's lives since His resurrection.