“Born of water...” -- exactly what does it mean?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#61
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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#63
If we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16), that is by the exercise of our will, why then is faith not our work?
We believe the gospel when we assent to the truth that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose again the third day. Belief is a mind- heart thing.
We obey the gospel when we become a participant with our Lord in death, burial and resurrection, through baptism. Obedience involves "doing" something and is proof of authentic faith.
The Scriptures give us quite a different picture.
Faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29)
Faith is a gift of God. (Rom. 12: 3)
Faith is by the grace of God. (Acts 18: 27)
God opens the heart to respond to the message. (Acts 16; 14)
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. (Acts 10: 17)
Yes, indeed, we receive faith by obeying, but not by choosing to believe, but by denying ourselves. (Matt. 16: 24)
God gives grace to the humble but he resists the proud. At that time he begets us through the word (the seed) and opens our heart to respond to the message in faith, love, hope, obedience, holiness and victory in Christ, which He has implanted in us through the word. (James 1: 18, 21) Truly, salvation is not of ourselves.
God bless.
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
421
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#64
Yes, indeed, but before we drink that water, we must be immersed in literal water, in the name of Christ, for the forgiveness of sin. All nations, all creation, all that God shall call to himself, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon repentance and baptism into our Lord. (Acts 2: 38, 39) God bless.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#65
Yes, indeed, but before we drink that water, we must be immersed in literal water, in the name of Christ, for the forgiveness of sin. All nations, all creation, all that God shall call to himself, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon repentance and baptism into our Lord. (Acts 2: 38, 39) God bless.
False and your Campbellism theology has already been refuted numerous times on Christian Chat.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit..) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (Spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12). Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - Acts 10:43-47 (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism in Acts 16:31?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

*So after properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture, we can see that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
#66
Born of water in that verse, is literally talking about the water of the womb ; physical birth .
When the water brakes, birth takes place.

Nicodemus even indicated that is what Christ said :
but he was just rushing to conclusions ; he said "" a second time ? "" .


Christ was saying this is the processes for everyone ( Even the son of man hath done this. Even Jesus was born ) .
We have already been born ; now we have to be born of The Spirit . That means faith in Christ, to know God sent Him. etc
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
#67
Look up the Greek of the verses to get a better handle on what is being taught there .

John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Verse 13 even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Even Christ has been born .
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
421
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#68
When was Paul saved? When did he receive the Holy Spirit? Some of our forum participants seem willing to draw unsupported conclusions. Acts 2: 38, 39 tell us that every one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit upon repentance and baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. These same folks are quick to point to Cornelius as an example of salvation before baptism in the name of Christ even though Jesus Himself said he that he that believes the gospel and has been baptized shall be saved. The same problem presents itself with Paul because we do not know for certain to what Acts 11: 14 refers. But this we know for certain, one must be born of both water and Spirit to enter the Kingdom. Cornelius received the Spirit. Cornelius was not saved until he had been baptized in both water and Spirit. If the same is true of Paul, and I personally doubt it, then he was not saved until he had been baptized in water also. At any rate we know he was immediately baptized in water and only after that did he eat to be strengthened. God bless.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#69
But this we know for certain, one must be born of both water and Spirit to enter the Kingdom. Cornelius received the Spirit.
As the OP has already mentioned, "water" here is a metaphor for the Word of God -- the Gospel.

It is only through the preaching of the Gospel that faith is generated in human hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore both Peter and James call the Word of God the "seed" of the New Birth (see the OP for the Scriptures). And Paul affirms this by saying that Christ sent him NOT to baptize but to preach the Gospel. If water baptism was necessary for salvation, Paul could not possibly have made such a statement. He would have said that Christ sent him to BOTH preach the Gospel and baptize.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#70
As the OP has already mentioned, "water" here is a metaphor for the Word of God -- the Gospel.

It is only through the preaching of the Gospel that faith is generated in human hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore both Peter and James call the Word of God the "seed" of the New Birth (see the OP for the Scriptures). And Paul affirms this by saying that Christ sent him NOT to baptize but to preach the Gospel. If water baptism was necessary for salvation, Paul could not possibly have made such a statement. He would have said that Christ sent him to BOTH preach the Gospel and baptize.
Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). Also in Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word..

The Holy Spirit is the instrument of both the cleansing and the birth of the divine nature in us. "Water" intensifies and magnifies "Spirit" by means of the many figurative ways God's Holy Spirit is shown working as a means of God's life giving Word, of spiritual power, and of cleansing.

To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted, yet that is exactly what those who teach baptismal regeneration do. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
421
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#71
Does Jesus need help to save?
Who ordained baptism for all nations, to all creation?
Who authorized making disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded. (Matt 28: 18-20)
Was Jesus confused when He said he who has believed the gospel and has been baptized, shall be saved?
Was the Hebrews writer confused when he wrote, “and having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation?” (Heb. 5: 9)
Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but not by faith alone. Faith works through love and hope with God’s works of faith, which He has ordained, to perfect that faith so that it might accomplish God’s purpose. (Gal. 5: 6, 1 Cor. 13: 13; James 2: 17- 24)
God bless.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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538
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#72
Does Jesus need help to save?
Who ordained baptism for all nations, to all creation?
Who authorized making disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded. (Matt 28: 18-20)
Was Jesus confused when He said he who has believed the gospel and has been baptized, shall be saved?
Was the Hebrews writer confused when he wrote, “and having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation?” (Heb. 5: 9)
Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but not by faith alone. Faith works through love and hope with God’s works of faith, which He has ordained, to perfect that faith so that it might accomplish God’s purpose. (Gal. 5: 6, 1 Cor. 13: 13; James 2: 17- 24)
God bless.
Everything you have said is true, as long as we are clear that water baptism is not essential for salvation but for sanctification.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#73
The KEY here comes in vs 6 = FLESH is FLESH

John 3:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: BORN AGAIN, NO UNBELIEVERS WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(NOTE: THIS MAN IS A ""DOCTOR OF JEWISH LAW"". AND HAS NO CLUE ABOUT SPIRITUAL BAPTISM.)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: NO ONE CAN ENTER INTO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM UNTIL YOU'RE BORN OF SPIRIT. NOW READ THE NEXT VERSE. ITS ABOUT BEING """BORN IN THE FLESH""". NOT WATER BAPTISM)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(NOTE: FLESH BIRTH BEGINS IN THE WOMB """AMNIOTIC SAC""" WITH WATER BURSTING. SPIRITUAL BIRTH COMES VIA CHRIST. WHO BAPTISES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. THIS PASSAGE ELIMINATES SALVATION FOR FALLEN ANGELS. TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD YOU MUST BE BORN OF FLESH, THEN BORN OF SPIRIT!)

Throughout scripture its flesh/physical then comes spiritual
Cain physical, Abel spiritual
Ishmael physical, Isaac spiritual (See Gal 4:22-31)
Esau physical, Jacob spiritual

1 Cor 15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(NOTE: Adam physical, Christ Spiritual)

John the Baptist proclaimed:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(NOTE: THE COMING MESSIAH WILL BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. ONLY CHRIST CAN BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS POURED OUT ON PENTECOST 50 DAYS AFTER JESUS RESURRECTION)

You have to be born of the flesh, in order to be eligible for spiritual baptism.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,776
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#74
You have to be born of the flesh, in order to be eligible for spiritual baptism.
But that is a given, and quite unremarkable. What the Lord was contrasting was the natural human birth through which all human beings are born sinners with the SUPERNATURAL New Birth by which believers are born of God. In order to be born of God (born of the Spirit, born from above) one needs to be born of (1) water and (2) the Holy Spirit. While water is frequently a metaphor for the Holy Spirit Himself here there are TWO AGENTS involved in the New Birth, so water cannot be the same as the Spirit. However, since water is a metaphor for the Word of God, and the Gospel is indeed called the Word of God, it becomes quite clear that a sinner must hear the Gospel, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then be born of the Spirit. This is clarified in John 1:11-13:

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
421
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#75
# 42- On the contrary Acts 2: 38 was written as is, to emphasize the necessity of baptism for each and every person who repents. In verse 41 and 47 Peter states that those who received the word were baptized and they were added to the number of those being saved. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16: 16)
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace states, "Such a view is an acceptable way of handling "eis" but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it." Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pgs 370 This is a nice way of saying the argument is bogus.
God bless
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,776
538
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#76
# 42- On the contrary Acts 2: 38 was written as is, to emphasize the necessity of baptism for each and every person who repents.
Correct. But not necessary for salvation. Big difference. As to depending on grammatical subtleties, let's leave that to the grammarians. We should let Scripture interpret Scripture. Notice there is no mention of water baptism here (Acts 16:31), although the ones who believed were indeed baptized immediately (not for salvation but for obedience to Christ).

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
421
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#77
# 69 Respectfully disagree with your reasoning, any able bodied Christian should be able be able to baptize another, but not everyone can preach and endure the things Paul suffered. Paul made that statement in light of the petty claims that were going on at Corinth.
God bless
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
15,080
962
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#78
# 42- On the contrary Acts 2: 38 was written as is, to emphasize the necessity of baptism for each and every person who repents. In verse 41 and 47 Peter states that those who received the word were baptized and they were added to the number of those being saved. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16: 16)
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace states, "Such a view is an acceptable way of handling "eis" but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it." Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pgs 370 This is a nice way of saying the argument is bogus.
God bless
BTY: Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (viz., that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): *Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,953
59
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#79
Hi everyone, I'm new here (blacklisted on another christian forum); what I think being born of water means is merely to be born in a physical body which is over 90% water.
I believe that your estimation is correct on this point. Glad to have you join us. Welcome to CC.
I don't believe 1 Peter 3:21 is saying what you're suggesting it does, lets look at it, here is 1 Peter 3:18-22

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long-suffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an anti-type which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
He specifically says "there is also an ANTI-TYPE which saves us". Here is the definition of anti-type-
an·ti·type
ˈan(t)iˌtīp/Submit
noun
noun: anti-type
1.
a person or thing that represents the opposite of someone or something else.
2.
something that is represented by a symbol.

I would think that the 2nd definition would fit the context of this passage best. The fact that we do die to ourselves, the old man, the flesh, the slave of sin, whatever you call it dies at rebirth, and in and by the Spirit you are raised all new, a new man with new desires, new eyes, and new life. This was exactly what I experienced when I was reborn (born of Spirit), and this happened without a man physically dunking me under water. I was baptized in water way before this and wasn't saved, then I was saved without being physically dunked under water. I do not agree with what you're saying here that baptism saves, nothing we "do" saves us aside from believing (and I would say realizing that we can't do life without God and submitting, but I also think that "believing" is a much bigger word than we normally think of it as), baptism no more saves us than circumcision and you know what Paul says about that. I just disagree that the verse you're citing here means what you're saying it means. I just KNOW that I was saved and made new without having been dunked, even though I was baptized again after my true rebirth to publicly proclaim my salvation, but not to earn it. I'm not trying to just argue with you, or just "be right" and "teach", because I like and appreciate your civil tone, well thought and laid out view, and your very apparent love and passion for our Lord Jesus Christ, I just wanted to share why I can't agree with your point here, and share why & how I was saved without any kind of fleshly work. I hope you have a great day sister. :)

To go into the water more, water is symbolic of the Word of God and the Word of God is involved in our salvation.

John 17:17
“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”

Ephesians 5:25-27
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,27
so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

James 1:18 “Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

I Peter 1:23 “since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;”

With Paul calling the Word of God, water and how it is used by Christ to sanctify and cleanse her (His bride), why? To present her to Himself in splendor, without spot, wrinkle or ay such thing, that His bride might be holy and without blemish. We see by the Scriptures that the Word of God bring us forth by that Word of truth that is imperishable seed. That can divide the soul and spirit because it is sharper than any two-edged sword. So sharp that it also divides the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, because it is living and powerful.

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

As mentioned in I Peter 3:18-22
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.”

The waters of Noah's flood is an anti-type to the baptism that saves us, and what baptism is that? Since the context of these verses is Christ being "made alive in the Spirit" the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Spirit, because it is the baptism that made us to drink into one Spirit, I Corinthians 12:13

“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

Paul affirms this in Romans 6:3-4 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”


Paul tells us that our baptism that saves us unites us with Him in the death and resurrection, where Peter mentions us being united in His resurrection and Paul in verse 4 tells us to walk in the newness of life and as we read on Paul tells us what that newness of life is.

7:6
“But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”

The newness is in the Spirit here Paul says to serve in the Spirit, as we read on he tells us in 8:4 to walk in the Spirit or the newness of life.

“in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

It is the baptism of the Spirit that save us or is the anti-type or corresponds to Noah's flood waters. There are many people that use I Peter 3:18-22 as a proof text for water baptism, but a simple reading of the context shows that it is not speaking of water baptism, but is speaking of a baptism that as no water involved. It does not remove the filth of the flesh and appeals to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Christ.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
351
34
28
#80
# 42- On the contrary Acts 2: 38 was written as is, to emphasize the necessity of baptism for each and every person who repents. In verse 41 and 47 Peter states that those who received the word were baptized and they were added to the number of those being saved. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16: 16)
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace states, "Such a view is an acceptable way of handling "eis" but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it." Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pgs 370 This is a nice way of saying the argument is bogus.
God bless

Scripture Study Tips
When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
^^^Myles Coverdale, Bible theologian/translator^^^

Who's writing? Luke

Who's talking? Peter

KEY question: Who's Peter talking to?

Acts 2:1 Temple Mt, Pentecost = pilgramage Feast. JEWS

Acts 2:14 Peter say's men of Judaea = Who's from Judaea? JEWS!

Acts 2:22 Peters say's, Ye men of Israel = JEWS

Acts 2: 36 Peter say's, Therefore let all the house of Israel = JEWS

Look these verses are to JEWS ONLY under the gospel of the kingdom = Repent be baptised the king is coming

QUESTION: If water Baptism is a requirement for gentile salvation? Why are these gentiles saved & ETERNALLY SEALED with God's Holy Spirit?

No repentance, No circumcision, No water batpism, No sacrifice brought to the Temple, No Masiac laws kept!

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These gentiles heard, they believed/had faith in God & received the baptism of the Holy Spirit & they were ETERNALLY SEALED & No Water Used!