“IF” they shall fall away, not “WHEN” they shall fall away

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,974
674
113
#1
Recently we have been seeing some posts in which Christians are claiming that genuine Christians can go to Hell even if they are genuine Christians. That is certainly not what the Bible reveals, but it is because Hebrews 6:4-6 is misunderstood and misapplied that we have this spiritual confusion. And spiritual confusion ultimately comes from Satan.

What we need to understand is that the apostle Paul was presenting A HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO, not something which could (or would) actually happen. So here is what we read:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Had Paul said “When they shall fall away” it would mean that this is NOT a hypothetical case, but something which could actually happen. But the “IF” makes it clear that if someone could actually “fall away” from his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, then there would be no possibility of bringing him back to repentance and faith.

Why is it a hypothetical? Simply because those who are truly saved have been born again and become children of God. They have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit so that they will be “new creatures” in Christ. Their sins have been washed away and all things have become new. Those who are truly converted have no desire to return to their old filthy ways, but seek to live for God and Christ. And those who have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ know that only He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If a person had been born blind and later on received his sight miraculously, would he desire to return to his former blindness? If that notion is absurd, then so is the notion that genuine Christians can be or will be unborn and return to their former state. Genuine Christians are called “sheep”, which means that they are under the care of the Divine Shepherd. And it is God and Christ who have given the believer assurance that they cannot be plucked out of His hand.

So what happens when genuine Christians sin (which can and does occur)? They are given reproofs and rebukes and instruction in righteousness by the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16,17; Hebrews 4:12,13). But if they persist in sin they are chastised (Hebrews 12:1-14). And if they still persist in sins they die prematurely. There is “a sin unto death” and there are sufficient warnings in Scripture for Christians to walk in the Spirit and crucify the flesh.

This is also why the apostle John tells Christians – genuine Christians – that if they say they have no sin they deceive themselves and make God a liar. Therefore they must confess their sins, and true confession includes repentance. The Hyper Grace false teachers tell Christians to ignore their present sins, but that is not what Scripture says. Here is what we find in 1 Corinthians 11:26-32:

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation
[condemnation] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
[DIE PREMATURELY]

31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


32
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

 
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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,341
811
113
#2
What I find interesting is that in Hebrews the Greek for fall away is Parapipto and not Aspostasia.

What's your thoughts on this?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,974
674
113
#3
What I find interesting is that in Hebrews the Greek for fall away is Parapipto and not Aspostasia.

What's your thoughts on this?
That's a good point. Apostasy would be far more serious and a rejection of God's truth. But parapipto is to fall back into the godless ways of the past.

Strong's Concordance
parapiptó: to fall in, into or away, to fail
Original Word: παραπίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: parapiptó
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ap-ip'-to)
Short Definition: I fall away
Definition: I fall away, fall back (into the unbelieving and godless ways of the old time).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 3895: παραπίπτω

παραπίπτω: 2 aorist participle παραπεσων; properly, to fall beside a person or thing; to slip aside; hence, to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander: τῆςὁδοῦ, Polybius 3, 54, 5; metaphorically, τῆςἀληθείας, Polybius 12, 12 (7), 2 ((here Didot edition ἀντέχηται); τοῦκαθηκοντος, 8, 13, 8); equivalent to to err,Polybius 18, 19,6; ἐντίνι, Xenophon, Hell. 1, 6,4. In the Scriptures, to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezekiel 14:13; Ezekiel 15:8 (forמָעַל); from Christianity, Hebrews 6:6.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
175
0
#4
What I find interesting is that in Hebrews the Greek for fall away is Parapipto and not Aspostasia.

What's your thoughts on this?

The difference is subtle in English but extreme in Greek!

Parapipto means to turn aside or deviate i.e. to adopt a false teaching.

Aspostasia means cease or discontinue.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,341
811
113
#5
The difference is subtle in English but extreme in Greek!

Parapipto means to turn aside or deviate i.e. to adopt a false teaching.

Aspostasia means cease or discontinue.
So how does this relate to Hebrews?

My understanding is that the writer was saying to them "Do not go back to the sacrificial system"
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
175
0
#6
So how does this relate to Hebrews?

My understanding is that the writer was saying to them "Do not go back to the sacrificial system"
I believe your understanding is correct. Paul is saying that if a person were to turn from dependence on Jesus to any other source of Salvation [IMO Paul acknowledges as impossible] it would be impossible to restore them to Salvation.

I thought you were asking for comment on the difference between the two words.

I was pointing out the difference between ceasing active practice of one's faith and placing faith in something other than Jesus alone.
 
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Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
61
48
#7
I agree with your take on Hebrews 6.

Do you really think Paul wrote the the Hebrews when he was the apostle to the Gentiles, not the Jews. The person that wrote the book of Hebrews heard the Gospel from those that heard it from the Lord or other men and Paul was not taught by other men, he learned the Gospel by revelation of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:1-4 “Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”

Galatians 1:11-12 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

The writer of Hebrews was taught the Gospel by those that heard it from those who heard it or from other men as we see he received it by revelation of the Lord. Outside information tells us that the book of Hebrews was written in a very sophisticated writer, where Paul did not use a sophisticated Greek, he tells us that he did not come with "words of eloquent wisdom" and that he wrote plainly.

I Corinthians 1:17, 2:1
“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”

“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

The book of Hebrews is more then Jesus Christ and Him crucified a lot more.

II Corinthains 11:6
“Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.”

Here's something else that is interesting, when studying Greek the first book that they have you interpret is I John because it is easier, for a more sophisticated Greek you would interpret the book of Acts because the Greek used is sophisticated Greek. This is why there are many that believer that it is Luke that wrote the book of Hebrews, I beliebe he did and the reason he could is because of the time he spent with Paul. Paul never starts an epistle without an opening greeting. Hebrews has no opening greeting. It is interesting that almost all people that are KJV only believe that Paul wrote Hebrews, wheather Luke did or not everything points to Paul not writting it. Whcih brings me to my next misrepsentation of Paul is that he wrote half of the New Testament, he did write the most epistles but did not write half of the New Testament. He did not even write the most of the NT, Luke did. Even if Paul did write Hebrews Luke still wrote more of the New Testament by 573 words.

Biblical books word count
https://overviewbible.com/word-counts-books-of-bible/





 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,201
202
63
#8
There are several problems with your interpretation here:

The biggest problem is that the "If" is not really an "if" clause at all in the Greek text. Without going into a long explanation I will just say that the verb for "falling away" is an aorist participle just like the preceding verbs in verses 4,5.

The NASB (and ESV) simply says at the beginning of verse 6: "and then have fallen away . . ." Unless you are a KJV only believer (LOL!), you need to carefully look at what the Greek text says here. This is admittedly a difficult section of verses to translate.

To say that this is just a hypothetical situation that Paul gives that could not actually happen is just not so - when you look at the Greek text!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,974
674
113
#9
To say that this is just a hypothetical situation that Paul gives that could not actually happen is just not so - when you look at the Greek text!
Since most Christians do not read the Greek text, God excuses their ignorance of the Greek. And since among those, even fewer are grammarians, God excuses that oversight. So let's stick with the KJB (which was good enough for many generations). The plain Bible teaching of the rest of the NT is that believers are eternally secure. This interpretation is consistent with that.
 
Sep 3, 2016
1,573
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#10
Jesus said He has no use for salt that loses its flavor (Matthew 5:13).

Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the Will of My Father which is in Heaven.

Jesus tells us that there will be many who have been involved in ministry in His name, to whom He will say, "Depart from Me; I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21). What is the Will of the Father? Verse 23 tells us.

v. 23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you who work iniquity.

The criteria alone is Christ and Him Crucified (1 Cor. 1:23). We have access to God only through Christ, and access to Christ only through the Cross, and access to the Cross only through a denial of self (Lk.9:23);
any other Message is judged by God as "iniquity," and cannot be a part of Christ (1 Cor. 1:17).

 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,974
674
113
#11
...v. 23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you who work iniquity.
So you have identified the tares, the goats, and the bad fish. The ones who "appear" to be Christians but have no personal experiential relationship to Christ. Hence "I never knew you".

On the other hand "The Lord KNOWETH them that are His".

King James Version
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Tim 2:19).


The Bible makes it crystal clear that among those who profess to be Christians (within the Kingdom of God) there will be wheat and tares, sheep and goats, good fish and bad fish, saved and lost, saints and sinners.

So why are to trying to sow THE SEEDS OF SPIRITUAL CONFUSION by misapplying Scripture? It is is a serious matter to try and confuse Christians about critical doctrines.
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
3,378
349
83
#12
The Galatians fell away and made Christ of no value to them in justification.


"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you."-Galatians 5:2-8


The Galatians are also evidence that God does not instantly give up on you and turn you over to your unbelief when you decide to go down that road. They are why I tell people you can be lost to unbelief only after you continually resist and resist and resist God's efforts to bring you back to faith in Christ. But once he turns you over to your unbelief, that's it. You're done. You are not allowed to come back to the inheritance.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,533
232
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64
Texas
#13
Recently we have been seeing some posts in which Christians are claiming that genuine Christians can go to Hell even if they are genuine Christians. That is certainly not what the Bible reveals, but it is because Hebrews 6:4-6 is misunderstood and misapplied that we have this spiritual confusion. And spiritual confusion ultimately comes from Satan.

What we need to understand is that the apostle Paul was presenting A HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO, not something which could (or would) actually happen. So here is what we read:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Had Paul said “When they shall fall away” it would mean that this is NOT a hypothetical case, but something which could actually happen. But the “IF” makes it clear that if someone could actually “fall away” from his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, then there would be no possibility of bringing him back to repentance and faith.

Why is it a hypothetical? Simply because those who are truly saved have been born again and become children of God. They have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit so that they will be “new creatures” in Christ. Their sins have been washed away and all things have become new. Those who are truly converted have no desire to return to their old filthy ways, but seek to live for God and Christ. And those who have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ know that only He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If a person had been born blind and later on received his sight miraculously, would he desire to return to his former blindness? If that notion is absurd, then so is the notion that genuine Christians can be or will be unborn and return to their former state. Genuine Christians are called “sheep”, which means that they are under the care of the Divine Shepherd. And it is God and Christ who have given the believer assurance that they cannot be plucked out of His hand.

So what happens when genuine Christians sin (which can and does occur)? They are given reproofs and rebukes and instruction in righteousness by the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16,17; Hebrews 4:12,13). But if they persist in sin they are chastised (Hebrews 12:1-14). And if they still persist in sins they die prematurely. There is “a sin unto death” and there are sufficient warnings in Scripture for Christians to walk in the Spirit and crucify the flesh.

This is also why the apostle John tells Christians – genuine Christians – that if they say they have no sin they deceive themselves and make God a liar. Therefore they must confess their sins, and true confession includes repentance. The Hyper Grace false teachers tell Christians to ignore their present sins, but that is not what Scripture says. Here is what we find in 1 Corinthians 11:26-32:

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation
[condemnation] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
[DIE PREMATURELY]

31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


32
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You really should check the Greek before presenting such an argument. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away. This is the force of the aorist accusative case. At some point in the past they had fallen away - punctiliar action irrespecrtive of the amount of time involved, and they remain fallen away. Their condition has not changed.​
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#14
Since most Christians do not read the Greek text, God excuses their ignorance of the Greek. And since among those, even fewer are grammarians, God excuses that oversight. So let's stick with the KJB (which was good enough for many generations). The plain Bible teaching of the rest of the NT is that believers are eternally secure. This interpretation is consistent with that.
KJV uber alles.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,533
232
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64
Texas
#15
Even the Testus Receptus has καὶ παραπεσόντας - "And having fallen away." There is no variance between the KJV text and any other Greek text I can find. The only Greek text I have been able to find containing a variance is the Tischendorf text and it does not read "if they fall away." It simply reads καί παραπίπτω "And I fall away."
 
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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,201
202
63
#16
You really should check the Greek before presenting such an argument. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away. This is the force of the aorist accusative case. At some point in the past they had fallen away - punctiliar action irrespecrtive of the amount of time involved, and they remain fallen away. Their condition has not changed.​
Exactly! See my post # 8 - you go in greater depth here than what I did - but well said.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,533
232
63
64
Texas
#17
Exactly! See my post # 8 - you go in greater depth here than what I did - but well said.
LOL, Yea, I saw your post after I posted mine. If I had noticed it earlier, I would not have bothered. You covered it sufficiently.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,201
202
63
#18
Since most Christians do not read the Greek text, God excuses their ignorance of the Greek. And since among those, even fewer are grammarians, God excuses that oversight. So let's stick with the KJB (which was good enough for many generations). The plain Bible teaching of the rest of the NT is that believers are eternally secure. This interpretation is consistent with that.
There are other interpretations (besides the one you give here) of Hebrews 6:4-6 that are consistent with a belief in OSAS. Your interpretation is just not consistent with the text at all.

I am not a believer in OSAS, but that does not really matter in this case. Lets not make this into an OSAS debate.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
175
0
#19
You really should check the Greek before presenting such an argument. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away. This is the force of the aorist accusative case. At some point in the past they had fallen away - punctiliar action irrespecrtive of the amount of time involved, and they remain fallen away. Their condition has not changed.​
That is correct but impossible, the first word in verse 4, applies to everything through the end of verse 6 thus. in the translators' minds creating an implied conditional.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,255
235
63
#20
Yes tasting is not eating, bringing it into ones soul. We can taste and see the Lord is good and the food of his word does not enter our soul.

The five thousand tasted of the miracle bread. Not all were given the spiritual understanding hid in that parable or the disciples in John six after tasting of the good word they walked away or fell back in unbelief. No faith.

Fall away, is used in the same way as fall back or backward indicating they are under the fiery judgement of God

Both Dan and Judas two that are eliminated from the description of the bride of Christ, the church are omitted for that purpose to understand the difference bewtween tasting and eating

Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.Joh 18:6

Powerful word that can move men without literally touching them . Its like those who accused the woman of adultery Jesus wrote their names in the ground, they went backward and left.

Those who do walk by faith or observation after the things seen the temporal . They crucify the Lord over and over as if one demonstration was not enough every time they do deny him in unbelief.


Better things accompany those who do walk by faith called actual redemption . Not a kick start every time they do deny him .
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.