1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-18, WHY do people say that JESUS IS going to bring the dead in CHRIST when HE comes back here, In 1 Thess 4:13-18

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bud62

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washburn Tn
#1
It dose not say that HE is going to bring the dead in CHRIST back to earth when HE comes BACK.
 

Kolistus

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Feb 3, 2020
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#2
Correct. John 14:1-3 confirms Jesus will take us back to the Father's house at the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

On the other hand, in a completely separate event called the second coming, we are coming back to earth, this can be seen in the book of Revelation where Jesus returns with His saints in white robes on horses TO the earth.

Prove me wrong.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#3
It dose not say that HE is going to bring the dead in CHRIST back to earth when HE comes BACK.
The Lord is bringing their souls back with Him to be reunited with their resurrected bodies that He will change to incorruptible, immortal bodies.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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#4
Correct. John 14:1-3 confirms Jesus will take us back to the Father's house at the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

On the other hand, in a completely separate event called the second coming, we are coming back to earth, this can be seen in the book of Revelation where Jesus returns with His saints in white robes on horses TO the earth.

Prove me wrong.
John 14 does not say that occurs at the rapture.

Coming up with a whole different coming of Christ when the Bible doesn't actually teach it is a really big deal. The Bible tells us about the parousia, the coming of Christ, which we often refer to as the 'Second Coming.' What occurs at the parousia?

I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive at his coming.
In I Thessalonians 4:15-18, the rapture occurs at his coming.
In II Thessalonians 2, after describing the man of sin, Paul wrote that 'that wicked' would be destroyed at His coming.

Scripture has the rapture occurring at his coming. Pretrib has the man of sin coming on the scene after the rapture. But II Thessalonians shows that wicked one being destroyed at the coming of Jesus.

The evidence pretribbers present is usually just reading the idea of pre-trib into certain passages that don't teach it. The closest thing I've seen for evidence is reinterpreting a verse about the apostasy to refer to the rapture, which doesn't fit with how uses the word elsewhere.

Matthew 24 also tells of the sign of the coming of the son of man and the angels gathering together His elect after the tribulation of those days. II Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the rapture as our gathering together unto Him.

I'm not seeing a case for pretrib in scripture, but rather a case against it.
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#5
The Lord is bringing their souls back with Him to be reunited with their resurrected bodies that He will change to incorruptible, immortal bodies.
Where are you getting that at???????it not in the verse
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#6
John 14 does not say that occurs at the rapture.

Coming up with a whole different coming of Christ when the Bible doesn't actually teach it is a really big deal. The Bible tells us about the parousia, the coming of Christ, which we often refer to as the 'Second Coming.' What occurs at the parousia?

I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive at his coming.
In I Thessalonians 4:15-18, the rapture occurs at his coming.
In II Thessalonians 2, after describing the man of sin, Paul wrote that 'that wicked' would be destroyed at His coming.

Scripture has the rapture occurring at his coming. Pretrib has the man of sin coming on the scene after the rapture. But II Thessalonians shows that wicked one being destroyed at the coming of Jesus.

The evidence pretribbers present is usually just reading the idea of pre-trib into certain passages that don't teach it. The closest thing I've seen for evidence is reinterpreting a verse about the apostasy to refer to the rapture, which doesn't fit with how uses the word elsewhere.

Matthew 24 also tells of the sign of the coming of the son of man and the angels gathering together His elect after the tribulation of those days. II Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the rapture as our gathering together unto Him.

I'm not seeing a case for pretrib in scripture, but rather a case against it.
There is not going to be no rapture
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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#7
There is not going to be no rapture
So are you saying that Paul is wrong in this verse?
I Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (ESV, emphasis mine.)

Rapture means 'caught up'. It refers to the event described in this verse.
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#8
John 14 does not say that occurs at the rapture.

Coming up with a whole different coming of Christ when the Bible doesn't actually teach it is a really big deal. The Bible tells us about the parousia, the coming of Christ, which we often refer to as the 'Second Coming.' What occurs at the parousia?

I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive at his coming.
In I Thessalonians 4:15-18, the rapture occurs at his coming.
In II Thessalonians 2, after describing the man of sin, Paul wrote that 'that wicked' would be destroyed at His coming.

Scripture has the rapture occurring at his coming. Pretrib has the man of sin coming on the scene after the rapture. But II Thessalonians shows that wicked one being destroyed at the coming of Jesus.

The evidence pretribbers present is usually just reading the idea of pre-trib into certain passages that don't teach it. The closest thing I've seen for evidence is reinterpreting a verse about the apostasy to refer to the rapture, which doesn't fit with how uses the word elsewhere.

Matthew 24 also tells of the sign of the coming of the son of man and the angels gathering together His elect after the tribulation of those days. II Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the rapture as our gathering together unto Him.

I'm not seeing a case for pretrib in scripture, but rather a case against it.
It's not saying that HE brings them from HEAVEN, BUT GOD, BRINGS them to HEAVEN, Verse 16, tell us that the LORD COMES DOWN BY HIMSELF, and GETS HIS SAINTS AND GOD BRINGS THEM BACK TO HEAVEN, IT'S very plain, THAT JESUS COMES DOWN BY HESELF.
GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#9
So are you saying that Paul is wrong in this verse?
I Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (ESV, emphasis mine.)

Rapture means 'caught up'. It refers to the event described in this verse.
NO,, JESUS COMES DOWN BY HIMSELF LIKE IT SAYS IN VERSE 16,THEN HE RESURECTS THE DEAD IN CHRIST< AND THEY GO UP WITH JESUS IN THE CLOUDS<, THEN THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE, WILL GO UP AND MEAT THEM IN THE CLOUDS< JUST LIKE IT SAYS,
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#10
So are you saying that Paul is wrong in this verse?
I Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (ESV, emphasis mine.)

Rapture means 'caught up'. It refers to the event described in this verse.
If you are saying that the rapture is a resurrection of the dead, There is a Resurrection in the verses, But it's not those that are alive. BUT those that are DEAD.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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#11
It dose not say that HE is going to bring the dead in CHRIST back to earth when HE comes BACK.

Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is talking about rapture.

Rev 20

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


This is a thousand years kingdom when people that murder for Jesus back to live and reign on the earth with Christ for 1000. Years

Rapture is after tribulation. Not all Christian come back to earth only people that murder for christ
 

presidente

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#12
If you are saying that the rapture is a resurrection of the dead, There is a Resurrection in the verses, But it's not those that are alive. BUT those that are DEAD.
So do you believe the verse I quoted is right or not? Will those who are alive and remain be caught up together with the dead to meet the Lord in the air or not?
 

presidente

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#13
It's not saying that HE brings them from HEAVEN, BUT GOD, BRINGS them to HEAVEN, Verse 16, tell us that the LORD COMES DOWN BY HIMSELF, and GETS HIS SAINTS AND GOD BRINGS THEM BACK TO HEAVEN, IT'S very plain, THAT JESUS COMES DOWN BY HESELF.
GOD bless as HE sees fit
No it does not. Read the verse.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I says He descends from heaven. It does not say that He takes the saints back up. The saints are caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air? (Do you believe that?) But it does not say that He takes them up.

When there was a parousia for a governmental official, the people of the city would festively or ceremoniously go out to meet him and escort him into the city.
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#14
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is talking about rapture.

Rev 20

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


This is a thousand years kingdom when people that murder for Jesus back to live and reign on the earth with Christ for 1000. Years

Rapture is after tribulation. Not all Christian come back to earth only people that murder for christ
YOU SAID IT YOUR SELF, in VERSE 16 THAT THE LORD HIMSELF COMES DOWN , THEN GOD BRINGS THE SAINTS BACK TO HEAVEN ,NOT TO THE EARTH, GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

presidente

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#15
NO,, JESUS COMES DOWN BY HIMSELF LIKE IT SAYS IN VERSE 16,THEN HE RESURECTS THE DEAD IN CHRIST< AND THEY GO UP WITH JESUS IN THE CLOUDS<, THEN THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE, WILL GO UP AND MEAT THEM IN THE CLOUDS< JUST LIKE IT SAYS,
It does not say that He comes down by Himself. II Thessalonians 1, for example, says He returns with His holy angels. Not mentioning other people does not mean they weren't there. There is a gospel that speaks of two blind men being healed, but another speaks just of one, BarTimeas being healed. One gospel mentions a group of women at the tomb, another gospel focuses on one. Not mentioning something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 

presidente

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#16
YOU SAID IT YOUR SELF, in VERSE 16 THAT THE LORD HIMSELF COMES DOWN , THEN GOD BRINGS THE SAINTS BACK TO HEAVEN ,NOT TO THE EARTH, GOD bless as HE sees fit
Do you think he takes them to heaven without catching them up?
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#17
No it does not. Read the verse.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I says He descends from heaven. It does not say that He takes the saints back up. The saints are caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air? (Do you believe that?) But it does not say that He takes them up.

When there was a parousia for a governmental official, the people of the city would festively or ceremoniously go out to meet him and escort him into the city.
CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT THE LORD COMES DOWN HIMSELF, HE NOT BRING NO ONE WITH HIM; BUT GOD BRINGS THEM BACK TO HEAVEN, YOU EVEN SAID IT YOUR SELF, GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

presidente

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#18
CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT THE LORD COMES DOWN HIMSELF, HE NOT BRING NO ONE WITH HIM; BUT GOD BRINGS THEM BACK TO HEAVEN, YOU EVEN SAID IT YOUR SELF, GOD bless as HE sees fit

The passage does not say that He brings no one with Him. It says the Lord Himself shall descended. It does not say He takes them back to heaven.

This is a parousia. 'Parousia' was used for official visits, and I have read that the people of the city would go out and meet the one who arrives and bring him to the city. They didn't all go off to Rome with the official.
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#19
It does not say that He comes down by Himself. II Thessalonians 1, for example, says He returns with His holy angels. Not mentioning other people does not mean they weren't there. There is a gospel that speaks of two blind men being healed, but another speaks just of one, BarTimeas being healed. One gospel mentions a group of women at the tomb, another gospel focuses on one. Not mentioning something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
IF you ARE trying the BIBLE was wrong , NO YOU just don't what it saying,
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
#20
The passage does not say that He brings no one with Him. It says the Lord Himself shall descended. It does not say He takes them back to heaven.

This is a parousia. 'Parousia' was used for official visits, and I have read that the people of the city would go out and meet the one who arrives and bring him to the city. They didn't all go off to Rome with the official.
AND IT tells you that the dead is RESURRECTED AND GO UP TO MEAT HIM IN THE CLOUDS, GOD bless as HE sees fit