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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#1
"Election: Christ’s Honor and Our Blessing"

http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-49



The following passages are interpreted differently by Calvinists and Arminians:

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
Calvinists argue that this passages teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice, therefore all those given to Christ will respond.
Arminians reply that "those given to me" in 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in vs. 45, those who "have heard and learned from the father" are the ones who "come to me."


John 6:44,65
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
The Calvinist holds that these passages teach total depravity, unconditional election, and also imply limited atonement and double predestination. This is because:
"No one can come to me unless . . . " because they are totally depraved
"it has been granted him from the Father" or "the Father draws him" meaning unconditional election. Unconditional in this case, because the cause is the father, not the individual.
Limited atonement and double predestination are usually inferred from the face that it is impossible to come to him without election. Therefore, those whom the Father has not drawn are naturally destined for judgement, and are therefore those for whom Christ did not die.
The Arminian agrees that these passages teach total depravity. However, they argue that the father draws all men to Christ (Jn. 12:32; 16:8). They further hold that to assign the cause exclusively to the Father ignores vss. 29; 35; 40; and 47. To attribute the cause exclusively to the Father regardless of the response of the person, flies in the face of the stated will of the Father in vs. 40 that "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him" be saved. Finally, with regard to limited atonement and double predestination, these positions depend on the earlier conclusion (unconditional election), and therefore beg the question.


John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."
Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.


Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
The Calvinists argue that this verse teaches unconditional election, because it would have been easy to say "as many as believed were appointed eternal life" but the reverse is stated.
The Arminians point out that the participle translated "were appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is in the middle-passive voice. This means that the same form is used in Greek to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB has translated it in the passive voice. However, if it is translated in the middle voice, the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed" (cf I Cor. 16:15 where the same participle is translated in the middle voice).


Romans 9:16,22,23
The Calvinist position is that Romans 9 teaches unconditional election and double predestination. This is because:
Vs. 16 "it [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills"
Vs. 18 refers to double predestination.
Vs. 22, 23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."
The election involved is not a national election, because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom He called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles,"" (i.e. believing Christians).
Arminians argue that the first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.
Vs. 1-5 make clear that the context is that of national choice. This is confirmed in verses 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved and all Ishmaelites were not damned. Also, in vs. 13 Malachi 3:2 is cited to demonstrate that God had favored the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom.
Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses's opinion. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).
Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 see above, and vs. 17 which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches therefore, that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharoah's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharoah's personal salvation was in view in these passages.
Vs. 22,23 refers to nations which have either glorious or a judgmental role in history. God allows evil nations to exist, and often uses them to bless the chosen nation, Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, because they have been "grafted in to the rich root" of God's purpose in history.
Another explanation is that the "lump" of clay in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has now become a vessel of wrath (for "prepared", read fit or suited to destruction), and believing Israel, which, along with believing Gentiles has become a vessel of mercy.
Any interpretation of Rom. 9 must account for the transition that Paul makes from national choice in vss. 1-5ff. and individual salvation in vss. 24-33. Therefore, neither view can claim that the other is completely out of context. The question becomes one of which transition is more believable, and makes the most sense of the Old Testament quotations.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,437
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#2
Galatians 1:15,16
"But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..."
Calvinists interpret this passage to mean that God irresistibly called Paul because he was elected to salvation. They further argue that Paul's salvation is typical of all Christians in this regard.
Arminians would point out Paul's election and calling were based on God's foreknowledge of Paul's decision to believe. Some Arminians acknowledge that Paul may have been unconditionally elected and irresistibly called by God, but point out that this does not prove that God deals with all people in this way. There is no reason to think that God cannot deal differently with some people than others. Arminians would argue that the burden is on the Calvinist to demonstrate not just that God elected someone unconditionally, but that he elects all in this way.


Ephesians 1:4,5
"...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"
Calvinists cite this passage as teaching unconditional election. God "chose us. . .before the foundation of the world." He "has predestined us to adoption as sons. . .according to the kind intention of His will." These phrases are taken to mean that God has sovereignly decided in advance who will be saved, completely irrespective of human choice.
Arminians agree that vs. 4 is teaching God's election of the believer to salvation. However, they call attention to the significance of the phrase "in Him." This phrase, it is argued, means that Christ was the chosen one (Is. 42:1), and that believers participate in his chosenness because they are baptized into him when they believe (Eph. 1:13). Arminians also insist that God's election and predestination are based on his foreknowledge of our choice to believe in Christ (I Pet. 1:1,2; Rom. 8:29).
With regard to vs. 5 Arminians hold that this passage is referring not to God's choice of who will be saved, but of God's choice that those who believe will be ultimately glorified. "Adoption as sons" is seen as references to the glorification of believers (cf. Rom. 8:23 for Paul's use of "adoption" in this way).


II Thessalonians 2:13
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
Calvinists interpret this passage to refer to unconditional election.
Arminians refer the term salvation to either glorification (see vs. 14) or maturity (I Thess. 5:23). Otherwise, why would it be "through sanctification"?
I Peter 2:8
"...for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
Some Calvinists find support for double-predestination in this passage. God appointed certain people to "doom" and therefore they rejected Christ.
Arminians point out that the specific cause for their stumbling is not God, but that "they are disobedient to the word." Since the noun "doom" is not found in the Greek text, it would be better to see stumbling as the antecedent. It is clear that they were appointed to stumble because they were disobedient in the same way as those who were hard of heart in the time of Isaiah (Is. 6:9,10). God veils his truth to those who stubbornly disobey his word (Mt. 13:12; Amos 8:11,12).


Jude 1:4
"For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Calvinists hold that this passage teaches double-predestination. The false teachers were "long ago marked out [by God] for... condemnation."
Arminians point out that the participle "previously marked out" (progegrammenoi) can also be translated "previously written about." Since Jude goes on to cite several recorded examples of the destruction of ungodly persons (vss. 5-18), this translation is seen as preferable.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#3
MANY are called, but FEW chosen

MANY does not equal ALL and FEW of the MANY does not equal ALL of the MANY

Enough said!!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,849
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#4
The following passages are interpreted differently by Calvinists and Arminians
There should be no such thing as a Calvinist or Arminian position. This is another device of Satan to (1) focus on a false Gospel, (2) deviate from the true Gospel, and (3) cause division among Christians.

The sad fact is that every Scripture used by Calvinists to supposedly support their gospel is either (a) misrepresented or (b) misapplied. So if a Calvinist was being totally honest with himself, he would see the subterfuge and reject false doctrine.

Here are the basic Bible FACTS which refute Calvinism:

1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

2. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

3. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and tasted death for every man. Therefore God desires the salvation of all humanity.

4. God commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Without obedience to the Gospel none can be saved.

5. The offer of salvation is to "whosoever" will come and take of the Water of Life freely. God is no respecter of persons.

6. God has predestined those who believe to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified). Therefore the stages of salvation are justification, sanctification, and glorification.

7. God elects none for salvation or damnation, but he elects individuals and nations for specific purposes. Israel was elected as a nation and the apostles were elected to be apostles. Judas was elected to betray Christ.

8. In view of all this Calvinism is "another gospel", and any other Gospel than that which is in Scripture is accursed.
 
Mar 14, 2011
71,379
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#5
Election is based on foreknowledge

Is based on the will of God

What is the will of God? John tells us in the 6th chapter, “It is the will of the father that WHOEVER sees and BELIEVES will have ETERNAL LIFE and will be RISEN ON THE LAST DAY.

Yes God draws us to himself. He must. Because we can not understand spiritual things, But we still have to see and believe, Many do not see, nor believe, yet have the same opportunity (many are called, few are chosen)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,658
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#6
There should be no such thing as a Calvinist or Arminian position. This is another device of Satan to (1) focus on a false Gospel, (2) deviate from the true Gospel, and (3) cause division among Christians.

The sad fact is that every Scripture used by Calvinists to supposedly support their gospel is either (a) misrepresented or (b) misapplied. So if a Calvinist was being totally honest with himself, he would see the subterfuge and reject false doctrine.

Here are the basic Bible FACTS which refute Calvinism:

1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

2. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

3. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and tasted death for every man. Therefore God desires the salvation of all humanity.

4. God commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Without obedience to the Gospel none can be saved.

5. The offer of salvation is to "whosoever" will come and take of the Water of Life freely. God is no respecter of persons.

6. God has predestined those who believe to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified). Therefore the stages of salvation are justification, sanctification, and glorification.

7. God elects none for salvation or damnation, but he elects individuals and nations for specific purposes. Israel was elected as a nation and the apostles were elected to be apostles. Judas was elected to betray Christ.

8. In view of all this Calvinism is "another gospel", and any other Gospel than that which is in Scripture is accursed.
Calvinism is simply a point of view of the Gospel. It is completely based on Scripture and is completely logical.

In order to attempt to show Calvinism as false you are pitting Scripture against Scripture and Theology against Theology.

You are saying that one point of view is false and the other point of view is Truth. I disagree with that view as I think most Christians do.

I think most Christians can see Truth in lots of different points of view. Different doesn't mean false. It just means that our point of view of who God Is and How He operates is different than what others may feel or think.


I think the Calvinist point of view is pretty much correct. But there are some things that I have doubts on. Calvinistic Theology is NOT Christ and it is not the Holy Spirit. It is just a way to explain to other grown Christians why some seem to choose Salvation and others do not. It is a way to explain the Sovereignty of God versus the will of men.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,849
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#7
Calvinism is simply a point of view of the Gospel. It is completely based on Scripture and is completely logical.
See. This is the thing. You have disregarded the Bible FACTS which I have presented, and called Calvinism "logical". It is the exact opposite of logical since it disregards Bible FACTS.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,914
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#8
when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ.
when does God increase His omniscience by learning such facts?

_________________________________________:unsure:

can we put that on a timeline, plz ok thks
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,914
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#9
1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

2. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

3. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and tasted death for every man. Therefore God desires the salvation of all humanity.

4. God commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Without obedience to the Gospel none can be saved.

5. The offer of salvation is to "whosoever" will come and take of the Water of Life freely. God is no respecter of persons.

6. God has predestined those who believe to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified). Therefore the stages of salvation are justification, sanctification, and glorification.

7. God elects none for salvation or damnation, but he elects individuals and nations for specific purposes. Israel was elected as a nation and the apostles were elected to be apostles. Judas was elected to betray Christ.

8. In view of all this Calvinism is "another gospel", and any other Gospel than that which is in Scripture is accursed.

1-5 are consistent with reformed theology.

6 is Arminian interpretation based on specific pre-suppositions -- not necessarily fact.

7a is purely Arminian philosophy, not interpretation, and 7b is specific interpretation an Arminian is forced into because of this philosophical presupposition

8 is therefore an unsubstantiated assertion.

Here are the basic Bible FACTS which refute Calvinism:
so i disagree with this statement.

5 of these are 'facts' 2 are eisegesis and 1 is an unjustified fiat.

i think you can do better ;)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#10
5 of these are 'facts' 2 are eisegesis and 1 is an unjustified fiat.
Opinions are NOT facts.

Unless you can present Scripture correctly interpreted to refute what I have posted, you would be better off not saying anything.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,914
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#11
Opinions are NOT facts.
yeah that's what i said. your points 6, 7 and especially 8 are opinions, not facts.

and it is furthermore merely your opinion that a theology wherein God's sovereignty > man's will is in opposition to 1-5.


 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,849
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#12
yeah that's what i said. your points 6, 7 and especially 8 are opinions, not facts.
Those are Bible FACTS supported by multiple Scriptures. But there would be no point posting the Scriptures for those who love their false gospel, and will refuse to abandon it. So unless you are prepared to publicly state that you will abandon Calvinism if the supporting Scriptures are provided, I won't waste any further time on your comments.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,437
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#13
God Alone is fully responsible for the following:

100% of creation
100% of initiating all Covenants
100% of law
100% of propitiation for sins
100% of forgiveness of sins
100% of judgment

More later....please add to this list.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,914
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#14
Those are Bible FACTS supported by multiple Scriptures. But there would be no point posting the Scriptures for those who love their false gospel, and will refuse to abandon it. So unless you are prepared to publicly state that you will abandon Calvinism if the supporting Scriptures are provided, I won't waste any further time on your comments.
i'm not a 'Calvinist'
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,914
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#15
God Alone is fully responsible for the following:

100% of creation
100% of initiating all Covenants
100% of law
100% of propitiation for sins
100% of forgiveness of sins
100% of judgment

More later....please add to this list.
life
peace
salvation
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,437
2,704
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#16
Those are Bible FACTS supported by multiple Scriptures. But there would be no point posting the Scriptures for those who love their false gospel, and will refuse to abandon it. So unless you are prepared to publicly state that you will abandon Calvinism if the supporting Scriptures are provided, I won't waste any further time on your comments.
I don't think anybody knows exactly how election works. I am not a mind reader much less the mind of God. So the precise workings and mechanisms and priorities and timing and so on and so forth are beyond any of us.

I do however understand that conflict/paradox resolution commonly occurs in higher dimensions, mathematically and in other ways such as teleologically.

Our pathetic condition of the failure to understand Gods workings is likely a result of the curse and the fact of our present humble status in 3 dimensional space and unidirectional time.

And of course we are none too bright either. Neither was Peter and the rest of the 12 for the most part.....
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,631
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#17
If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice in the matter, then God's kingdom is not true love, but robotic love, for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That would mean their faith is not real, and their confession of Christ is not real, and their hope is not real, and their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them, but from God.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

And God said He wants all people to come to the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Also God said all people have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and He is no respecter of persons, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all the law, and what makes you to differ from another person, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

So God views all people the same, and in the same boat, so why would He be choosing people without their choice when all people are the same to Him being sinners.

Also no person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

And no person can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

And Peter said that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.

But there is people that confess these things that do not believe the Calvinist viewpoint, and believe the same as them concerning these scriptures.

Which if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would not make any sense for Him to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

But there is people that oppose Calvin, and OSAS, and say saved by works, that believe Jesus is Lord, and confess Jesus as Savior, and say He is the Son of the living God, so God has to be working in their lives.

For many are called but few are chosen, and it is obvious we have a choice.

Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God chose us we did not choose Him, for when God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to enter the door of truth, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life when He called them.

Also if God chose who would be saved, and not saved, without their choice God would of never created the earth, but would of created people directly to be with Him.

For the earth serves no purpose unless people have a choice.

For whether God created the earth, or not, the situation is the same, for the saints do not participate in their salvation, and nothing that they believe stems from them but from God.

So why would God create the earth for them to be on when they do not choose their salvation.

For the earth only makes sense if we have a choice in our salvation for we must not dwell with God to make a choice to be with Him, for if we do not have a choice God would of created us directly to be with Him.

Predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.

For God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same thing as it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

And this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,437
2,704
113
#18
If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice in the matter, then God's kingdom is not true love, but robotic love, for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That would mean their faith is not real, and their confession of Christ is not real, and their hope is not real, and their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them, but from God.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

And God said He wants all people to come to the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Also God said all people have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and He is no respecter of persons, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all the law, and what makes you to differ from another person, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

So God views all people the same, and in the same boat, so why would He be choosing people without their choice when all people are the same to Him being sinners.

Also no person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

And no person can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

And Peter said that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.

But there is people that confess these things that do not believe the Calvinist viewpoint, and believe the same as them concerning these scriptures.

Which if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would not make any sense for Him to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

But there is people that oppose Calvin, and OSAS, and say saved by works, that believe Jesus is Lord, and confess Jesus as Savior, and say He is the Son of the living God, so God has to be working in their lives.

For many are called but few are chosen, and it is obvious we have a choice.

Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God chose us we did not choose Him, for when God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to enter the door of truth, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life when He called them.

Also if God chose who would be saved, and not saved, without their choice God would of never created the earth, but would of created people directly to be with Him.

For the earth serves no purpose unless people have a choice.

For whether God created the earth, or not, the situation is the same, for the saints do not participate in their salvation, and nothing that they believe stems from them but from God.

So why would God create the earth for them to be on when they do not choose their salvation.

For the earth only makes sense if we have a choice in our salvation for we must not dwell with God to make a choice to be with Him, for if we do not have a choice God would of created us directly to be with Him.
Job's suffering didn't make sense....to him. Ruined sinners don't the luxury of things making sense IMO.

Another point: Jesus was sinless, no doubt about that? Why? He never...ever...did His Own will. He did the Father's will perfectly and faultlessly. It seems to me that pre-Salvation, nobody does the will of the Father, ever, at any point. It is only post-Salvation that faith and the Holy Spirit begets real fruit and the will of the Father. Never before. So it seems to me that indeed God's Sovereign initiation absolutely must be the first event in Salvation. If it were not for that, we would be eternally lost and eternally without hope.

John 12:45
"For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

John 8:29
"And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.”

John 6:38
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,437
2,704
113
#19
If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice in the matter, then God's kingdom is not true love, but robotic love, for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That would mean their faith is not real, and their confession of Christ is not real, and their hope is not real, and their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them, but from God.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

And God said He wants all people to come to the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Also God said all people have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and He is no respecter of persons, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all the law, and what makes you to differ from another person, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

So God views all people the same, and in the same boat, so why would He be choosing people without their choice when all people are the same to Him being sinners.

Also no person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

And no person can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

And Peter said that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.

But there is people that confess these things that do not believe the Calvinist viewpoint, and believe the same as them concerning these scriptures.

Which if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would not make any sense for Him to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

But there is people that oppose Calvin, and OSAS, and say saved by works, that believe Jesus is Lord, and confess Jesus as Savior, and say He is the Son of the living God, so God has to be working in their lives.

For many are called but few are chosen, and it is obvious we have a choice.

Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God chose us we did not choose Him, for when God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to enter the door of truth, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life when He called them.

Also if God chose who would be saved, and not saved, without their choice God would of never created the earth, but would of created people directly to be with Him.

For the earth serves no purpose unless people have a choice.

For whether God created the earth, or not, the situation is the same, for the saints do not participate in their salvation, and nothing that they believe stems from them but from God.

So why would God create the earth for them to be on when they do not choose their salvation.

For the earth only makes sense if we have a choice in our salvation for we must not dwell with God to make a choice to be with Him, for if we do not have a choice God would of created us directly to be with Him.

Predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.

For God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same thing as it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

And this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.
For many are called but few are chosen, and it is obvious we have a choice.

Many are called and God is doing the choosing. Yes?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#20
Our pathetic condition of the failure to understand Gods workings is likely a result of the curse and the fact of our present humble status in 3 dimensional space and unidirectional time.
He has willed it that we trust Him even without fully comprehending Him or His doings -- and to seek them out, because knowing Him is life, which He came so that we might have, abundantly