We are all horrified....

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 6, 2015

Eternal torment makes "Heaven" seem like a personal hell for those who love like Christ does. But I don't want to just talk about feelings, they don't really matter. Everyone can study for themselves, or we can get into the Bible together. I want to examine these things again without bias, I want to post supporting Biblical evidence for each side. I just haven't been able to yet because my wife has had my laptop, far too frustrating on a smartphone (maybe later tonight I will get a chance). If anyone wants to join in, please do. But it would be awesome if people make arguments for both eternal torment and eternal death. Otherwise, its more of a battle than a search for truth.

Here's something interesting that I wouldn't consider this evidence but still something to think about: In Genesis, God told Adam that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die. Satan was the first to suggest that God was lying and that they would not die.

nogard · Feb 6, 2015

Jimbone said:

I wasn't going to bother responding to this, but this kind of ignorance just needs to be corrected.

First of all, I'm not making up God. We are talking about the Christian God here, are we not? And this hypothetical situation is all too real. And not only is it real, but it happens hundreds of times each day and much worse than the example I gave. In the world of injustice and suffering, the truth is much worse than any hypothetical I can muster.

I think it's quite obvious that there is a mixture of joy and suffering in the world. Look at people like you and me. we get to live in the cozy United States of America in the 21st century. We do not live in want for our basic needs, and neither do the majority of people around us. Because of this, we can become gravely unaware of the amount of injustice and suffering that occurs elsewhere in the world. Here's just a couple sobering stats for you: About 21,000 people die of hunger each day in the world, most of them children. There are an estimated 20.9 million living victims of human trafficking, 5.5 million of them children. Now the problem with all this suffering and with the existence of a Christian God, is that Christians believe that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Just looking at the good side of life, does not erase this question. We have a God here who is able to help these people, but chooses not to. This is a problem that cannot be overlooked. We too, as human beings, should try to help these people where and when we can. But no human or group of humans has the power to solve injustices of this magnitude as effectively or efficiently as God can.

Whatever I do, it does not affect God's responsibility. Imagine me and a friend were in a room with a man and a woman. The man shoots the woman in the stomach and leaves. Me and my friend stand and watch as the woman lies there for three hours bleeding to death before she finally dies. Then we leave. The cops catch up with us all, and asks me, "why did you do nothing for that woman?" My response is, "Oh, my friend was with me and he didn't do anything about it. So I thought that justified me not doing anything about it."

See how dumb that argument is? Whether or not humans are doing enough to alleviate suffering on earth there is still the fact that God is able to alleviate suffering, but chooses not to. It's funny how you charge me with only blaming God for suffering, and then you do just the opposite and only blame humanity for suffering.

I mean, if I had the power to save some kid in India who is currently living in a brothel against her will, being sold out as a sex slave on a frequent basis, I would! I would save her in a heartbeat. But I do not have the ability right now to do that. But the Christian God does. Not only can He save her, but He knows what will happen if He doesn't. God's inaction here speaks volumes and leads to an honest question. If God is good, and able to help, why would He let that woman suffer?

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 6, 2015

nogard said:

Good question. We should do a thread on that too if there isn't one already.

SeaBass · Feb 6, 2015

If one does not believe the bible's teaching about an eternal place of torment, then one has no valid reason to believe the bible's teaching about an eternal heaven. If one argues no man deserves an eternity in hell, it can also be argued no man deserves an eternity in heaven either. Man is far more deserving hell than heaven.

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 6, 2015

SeaBass said:

I think the question is, "what does the Bible teach?", not "what do we think we deserve? "

SeaBass · Feb 6, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

Yes, and the bible teaches both eternal (aiōnios) puishment and life eternal (aiōnios), Mt 25:46.

But I did not see in the OP where it was biblically proven the man would not be in eternal punishment, but I read the OP's 'thinking' on what the man deserved and the rest of us should "rethink" our position on it.

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 6, 2015

SeaBass said:

Yes, and the bible teaches both eternal (aiōnios) puishment and life eternal (aiōnios), Mt 25:46.

But I did not see in the OP where it was biblically proven the man would not be in eternal punishment, but I read the OP's 'thinking' on what the man deserved and the rest of us should "rethink" our position on it.

Yes, But what is the punishment?

SeaBass · Feb 6, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

The bible describes the punishment as separation from God with unquenchable fire, darkness, weeping & gnashing of teeth where the worm dies not. A place where Christ " treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God" Rev 19.

I do not believe there is a literal fire literal teeth or worms but the bible is explaining the punishment of hell in terms humans can understand. Likewise I do not believe heaven has a literal streets of gold, literal pearly gates, but is being described in language humans can relate to.

weakness · Feb 6, 2015

nogard said:

I wasn't going to bother responding to this, but this kind of ignorance just needs to be corrected.

First of all, I'm not making up God. We are talking about the Christian God here, are we not? And this hypothetical situation is all too real. And not only is it real, but it happens hundreds of times each day and much worse than the example I gave. In the world of injustice and suffering, the truth is much worse than any hypothetical I can muster.

I think it's quite obvious that there is a mixture of joy and suffering in the world. Look at people like you and me. we get to live in the cozy United States of America in the 21st century. We do not live in want for our basic needs, and neither do the majority of people around us. Because of this, we can become gravely unaware of the amount of injustice and suffering that occurs elsewhere in the world. Here's just a couple sobering stats for you: About 21,000 people die of hunger each day in the world, most of them children. There are an estimated 20.9 million living victims of human trafficking, 5.5 million of them children. Now the problem with all this suffering and with the existence of a Christian God, is that Christians believe that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Just looking at the good side of life, does not erase this question. We have a God here who is able to help these people, but chooses not to. This is a problem that cannot be overlooked. We too, as human beings, should try to help these people where and when we can. But no human or group of humans has the power to solve injustices of this magnitude as effectively or efficiently as God can.

Whatever I do, it does not affect God's responsibility. Imagine me and a friend were in a room with a man and a woman. The man shoots the woman in the stomach and leaves. Me and my friend stand and watch as the woman lies there for three hours bleeding to death before she finally dies. Then we leave. The cops catch up with us all, and asks me, "why did you do nothing for that woman?" My response is, "Oh, my friend was with me and he didn't do anything about it. So I thought that justified me not doing anything about it."

See how dumb that argument is? Whether or not humans are doing enough to alleviate suffering on earth there is still the fact that God is able to alleviate suffering, but chooses not to. It's funny how you charge me with only blaming God for suffering, and then you do just the opposite and only blame humanity for suffering.

I mean, if I had the power to save some kid in India who is currently living in a brothel against her will, being sold out as a sex slave on a frequent basis, I would! I would save her in a heartbeat. But I do not have the ability right now to do that. But the Christian God does. Not only can He save her, but He knows what will happen if He doesn't. God's inaction here speaks volumes and leads to an honest question. If God is good, and able to help, why would He let that woman suffer?[/QUOTE God has chosen us The choice and the means to become his children. He abides in a earthen vessel with the life of God through the Spirit dwelling in his true child. We are his body and expression to the world ,principalities and powers in heavenly places, Spiritual wickedness in high places.In former times God expressed himself in other ways, but now it is through us,more specifically Christ is in us reconciling the world unto himself . Once in Jesus ,but now we through the indwelling Spirit are the light of the world, So this talk of waiting on God to relieve the suffering we now know, is really an excuse and proof of the apostate Christianity abounding in the world and spoken by the prophets with the warning that "if that light which we think to be in us really be darkness ,how great is that darkness" If we would only deny ourselves of the common luxurious life style that has been the down fall of every civilisation, we could easily relieve all the suffering in the world caused by lack. It is commonly know that the "civilized" world, particularly the U.S.,uses excesses capable of the problem discussed above. And has been so through out the worlds history, Giving understanding to the lord words saying " the poor you will have always with you"

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 7, 2015

I've been working on this Bible study, it's a huge one and actually going to take me awhile. I thought I'd share another interesting passage to consider in the meantime:

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So at this point, "the sea, death and hell" have given up all the dead within them. All ungodly men have have been judged according to their deeds and thrown in to the lake of fire. Death and hell have been thrown into the lake of fire. Then, after this happens:

2 Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Then, the heavens and earth are obliterated, consumed and dissolved by fire. Next:

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

God recreates the heavens and earth, making all things new. Devoid of sin, death, sorrow, crying and pain. For the things which came before were destroyed and passed away.

nogard · Feb 7, 2015

It's strange, there are viable alternatives to believing in a conscious eternal torment in hell with Scripture to support it, as well. Yet people on here act as if they actually want a place where people suffer forever to exist. Why would anyone argue so for this to be true?

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 7, 2015

nogard said:

I'm not sure, what I've shared so far is not even the study on the topic. Just random things. Maybe people don't truly realize that many people can be wrong about something. People grow up hearing something, everyone they know believes it, it's accepted as truth, it becomes a part of their worldview/identity and becomes untouchable in their minds (they never question it). So if anything contradicts the belief (eternal torment in this case), they take it as an attack on God, their religion and themselves, the thought is offensive. - The same thing happens with all these big name scientists who declare that the idea of God is for the ignorant. They have a worldview and presupposition in which God doesn't exist, so no matter what they observe or study, they will never come to any conclusion or devise any theory which supports the existence of God (even if the evidence clearly does).

I can't tell you how easy it is to spot the logical errors in all these "Science" shows now, it's almost ridiculous. They basically admit God exists all the time, they just don't realize it.

sveinen · Feb 7, 2015

Yet said:

If the words die, perish, and destroy mean live forever, then sinners will burn forever.....I reckon!

John 3:16 should read 'For God so loved he world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him

should not spend eternity in hell but shall spend eternity in heaven'. The word perish in that verse was obviously a mistake for everyone has the gift of eternal life...according to most. Let me ask this. Has the majority ever been wrong before?

"only a remaint shall be saved."

sveinen · Feb 7, 2015

Yet said:

Jonathan Edwards: Fourth, the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.The sight of the wonderful power, the great and dreadful majesty, and awful justice and holiness of God, manifested in the eternal punishment of ungodly men, will make them prize his favor and love vastly the more. And they will be so much the more happy in the enjoyment of it.

Mine: Is something wrong with this picture?

well, it looks kinda catholic

i sorta wonder how to comment. "prophecy recently reached here of enemies torment gonna lift Heavens..."
fear Christ.

sveinen · Feb 7, 2015

Yet said:

breno785au said:

I completely agree with you that we should seek and learn for ourselves and not rely on any man but that's not the basis of my post. My opinion is that I think it is disrespectful that we use this mans execution to pass our doctrinal belief on others, I say this as if his family and friends were reading this thread.[/QUOTE

God is getting a bad rap by pagan philosophy. What does it take to wake up a serial drunk driver? A slap on the wrist?....i think not. A ball bat might be in order. If you get my meaning.

the car is wrong, man.

sveinen · Feb 7, 2015

nogard said:

I wasn't going to bother responding to this, but this kind of ignorance just needs to be corrected.

First of all, I'm not making up God. We are talking about the Christian God here, are we not? And this hypothetical situation is all too real. And not only is it real, but it happens hundreds of times each day and much worse than the example I gave. In the world of injustice and suffering, the truth is much worse than any hypothetical I can muster.

I think it's quite obvious that there is a mixture of joy and suffering in the world. Look at people like you and me. we get to live in the cozy United States of America in the 21st century. We do not live in want for our basic needs, and neither do the majority of people around us. Because of this, we can become gravely unaware of the amount of injustice and suffering that occurs elsewhere in the world. Here's just a couple sobering stats for you: About 21,000 people die of hunger each day in the world, most of them children. There are an estimated 20.9 million living victims of human trafficking, 5.5 million of them children. Now the problem with all this suffering and with the existence of a Christian God, is that Christians believe that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Just looking at the good side of life, does not erase this question. We have a God here who is able to help these people, but chooses not to. This is a problem that cannot be overlooked. We too, as human beings, should try to help these people where and when we can. But no human or group of humans has the power to solve injustices of this magnitude as effectively or efficiently as God can.

Whatever I do, it does not affect God's responsibility. Imagine me and a friend were in a room with a man and a woman. The man shoots the woman in the stomach and leaves. Me and my friend stand and watch as the woman lies there for three hours bleeding to death before she finally dies. Then we leave. The cops catch up with us all, and asks me, "why did you do nothing for that woman?" My response is, "Oh, my friend was with me and he didn't do anything about it. So I thought that justified me not doing anything about it."

See how dumb that argument is? Whether or not humans are doing enough to alleviate suffering on earth there is still the fact that God is able to alleviate suffering, but chooses not to. It's funny how you charge me with only blaming God for suffering, and then you do just the opposite and only blame humanity for suffering.

I mean, if I had the power to save some kid in India who is currently living in a brothel against her will, being sold out as a sex slave on a frequent basis, I would! I would save her in a heartbeat. But I do not have the ability right now to do that. But the Christian God does. Not only can He save her, but He knows what will happen if He doesn't. God's inaction here speaks volumes and leads to an honest question. If God is good, and able to help, why would He let that woman suffer?

sir, i see you got "corrections" yourself before.
i don't want to spit at you, and to me it's much as answer to prayers like "seeing you again here now."
good thing you're alright!
well, please be!
so, thinks "those corrections" kinda originated from some earlier posts yours somewhat.
really, i worried though. serious. we're rude in here, and shall repents not to cause people killing themselves. please join me in fear.
i've been running around shouting here, you seem to have been jumping around on like a false leg.
if we don't just LOVE, we appear to be thiefing life off neighbours. and it's not real when we put it in our pocket, like.
i think you have better feet!
"but i think meeting here, we join in service:"
GOD IS GOOD, SO HE IS HELPING!

sveinen · Feb 7, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

God Is Good, Is Helping!
Help Him.

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 7, 2015

Here's a few more random verses

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

Isaiah 47:14 " Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Psalm 21:9 "Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them."

Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been."

1 John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Matthew 13:38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Deuteronomy 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men"

-------Even Satan will be burnt to ashes in front of men-------

Ezekiel 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more"

JustinFromTwinCities · Feb 7, 2015

SeaBass said:

Usually aion (G165) is translated as forever in the Bible. But the meaning is "age" which can mean one of two things:

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. period of time, age, a human lifetime or life itself

The true length of time it is describing is dependent on the subject and context. In the case of God, who is eternal, it literally means forever as we tend to think of it. However, when the subject is a mortal being, it would be limited to the life span of the being.

The hebrew equivalent can have the same two meanings. 'owlam (H5769):

Deuteronomy 15:17 "Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant forever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise."

In the passage above, the word forever is used to describe how long a person will be a servant. It obviously cannot mean that the person will be a servant for all eternity, only as long as he lives.

In Psalm 146:10 it means literally forever because it is speaking of God.

Psalm 146:10 "The LORD shall reign for ever, H5769even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

More can be said of the Greek and Hebrew but someone can look into it themselves if desired. I'll give another example from the Bible instead.

In Isaiah 34:9, we see the description of the destruction of Edom. It states that it will be turned into brimstone and burning pitch and that the fire will not be quenched day or night and the smoke will go up forever.

Isaiah 34:9 "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls."

But immediately after, we see that it will not always be literally on fire because it will become a wasteland inhabited by animals. So it means that it will be burnt up until there is nothing left.

The exact same description is used in Revelation to describe the fate of the wicked:

Revelation 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

So is there a chance that it is saying they will be punished by burning and the smoke will rise until there is nothing left to burn and God remakes the heavens and the earth?

I say yes and there is yet much more to consider...

SeaBass · Feb 7, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

Usually aion (G165) is translated as forever in the Bible. But the meaning is "age" which can mean one of two things:

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. period of time, age, a human lifetime or life itself

The true length of time it is describing is dependent on the subject and context. In the case of God, who is eternal, it literally means forever as we tend to think of it. However, when the subject is a mortal being, it would be limited to the life span of the being.

The hebrew equivalent can have the same two meanings. 'owlam (H5769):

Deuteronomy 15:17 "Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant forever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise."

In the passage above, the word forever is used to describe how long a person will be a servant. It obviously cannot mean that the person will be a servant for all eternity, only as long as he lives.

In Psalm 146:10 it means literally forever because it is speaking of God.

Psalm 146:10 "The LORD shall reign for ever, H5769even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

More can be said of the Greek and Hebrew but someone can look into it themselves if desired. I'll give another example from the Bible instead.

In Isaiah 34:9, we see the description of the destruction of Edom. It states that it will be turned into brimstone and burning pitch and that the fire will not be quenched day or night and the smoke will go up forever.

Isaiah 34:9 "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls."

But immediately after, we see that it will not always be literally on fire because it will become a wasteland inhabited by animals. So it means that it will be burnt up until there is nothing left.

The exact same description is used in Revelation to describe the fate of the wicked:

Revelation 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

So is there a chance that it is saying they will be punished by burning and the smoke will rise until there is nothing left to burn and God remakes the heavens and the earth?

I say yes and there is yet much more to consider...

Yes, context will determine how 'forever' is used but in Mt 25:46 if eternal punishment is only 'age enduring' then lifer eternal is also only 'age enduring. One cannot change the definition of aionios in the middle of the verse for that only shows a bias.

Philemon 1:15 "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever (aiōnios);"

2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aiōnios)."

In both verses above, aiōnios is set in contrast to that which is temporary, short in time.

We are all horrified....

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