The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)

[Goodnewsman]

JGIG, WHAT! how did you heart what I didn't say???? did you notice the verses I quoted came from the bible? I didn't write the bible.

the point was again: "we are not justified at the cross, but at conversion"

Just because Jesus died for the whole world doesn't mean the whole world will be saved "as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God"

why will you not give me a proper response?

what scripture do you have to prove that every single person in the world will be saved?

be careful lest you "wrest the scriptures to your own destruction"

Then no sin committed after the Cross is remitted according to you.

We're all sunk.

-JGIG

 

[Jimbone]

Please don't confuse what we're saying with those who preach 'sinless perfectionism'. There are one or two I've seen who hint at sinless perfectionism, but that is NOT what I, Ben, Gr8Grace, WillieT, Grace777x70, and others are teaching here.

We DO talk about the New Creation that we are in Christ, and Grace teaches us how to live out who we now are in Christ. And that's a process. All in the context of the Gospel:

• Who Jesus is
• What He came to do
• What that actually accomplished, and
• Who those who believe in Christ are in Him

But we ARE talking about the New Creation - and for our walk to reflect who we are in Christ. That's what the OP is trying to clarify.




That's not us saying that - that's others saying that we're saying that. We are not saying that 'It's ok to sin, it's ok to sin, it's ok to sin'.

We're saying that when we do sin, we have an Advocate. The Grace message is that sin is dumb and destructive - don't sin! Live as the New Creation that you are!




That's pretty much what we are teaching. "wow this amazing grace has changed me, I love my God I now know is real, I LOVE him, it's my choice and I chose to serve Him with all my mind, body, and strength to show His love and bring His glory to the world to the best of my ability and only by His power"



I come from being saved in a religious ed class through a public school back in 1973 =o). If you want to know my basic upbringing, you can read it here.

There are lots of parts of my life's experience that were not 'happy face rainbow side' - if you want to know more about that, feel free to PM me.

And you're right - God's justice, His Gospel, is not all about us, though we are the beneficiaries. It's all about Christ, His Work, and what He did to restore what was lost at the Fall.

It's about Christ, His Work, what that accomplished, and who we are in Him. About us behaving as who we are in Him. About God's Grace that teaches us about behaving as who we are in Him.

-JGIG

I've exsplained my position and you have yours, I've said I agree with you as a born again believer and that my only grip is for the ones like I was before I was truly save and that it can come off misleading as I said what you spit and omit almost landed me in hell personally, just the flipside of the coin from the legalist stuff that almost ran EG off. I have also pretty much come to an understanding with everyone else too, but you seem to just want to teach, correct, argue, and/or get the last words in, so go ahead, I will not be engaging with any kind of dialogue anymore and you can make sure your pride is well fed. I hope it satisfies you and am sure you will have many others to stroke that ego. I've made my point so have a great night/week/month/year/life and may God bless you and your whole family for this life and eternity.

 

[Goodnewsman]

Jesus paid for the sin's of the whole world, but does that mean that the whole world will be saved?

Not sure, my father mentioned a good angle on it. There are some people that can't get over the evil they have committed and because of that their hearts condemn them. They can't forgive themselves, but the Lord has. They say, "God couldn't forgive me of this terrible evil." Fortunately for them, He did and it was paid for at the cross. So this verse tells them that God is greater than their heart and knoweth all things. Jesus paid for their sin.

 

[Goodnewsman]

HYPERS.....please comment.

Galatians 2:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Then almost as if the apostle Paul knew and anticipated you HYPER guys would start preaching that Justification by faith forever forgives future sins, he kept writing v 17,18.....please continue to read and comment


[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

do we not have the ability to make ourselves a transgressor?

 

[sydlit]

Jesus paid for the sin's of the whole world, but does that mean that the whole world will be saved?

Chosen IN CHRIST!
Not just chosen, but chosen IN HIM!
Does He then UN-choose us OUT of Himself?!
Think on this 3 minute clip.
https://vimeo.com/150928122

 

[Goodnewsman]

can you HYPER GRACE folks not see that your doctrine closely resembles the doctrine of indulgences in the roman church, which sparked the reformation in Luther's day?

both teach that sin may be forgiven before it is committed.

the whole 2 chapter of James cries out against this.

 

[Goodnewsman]

so you believe God chose some of us to go to heaven and chose some to go to hell?

how do you know if your chosen?

few questions to ponder:

matthew 5:41 said HELL was prepared for the devil and his angels. have you ever read were Hell was prepared for mankind?

doesn't your doctrine make a liar of JESUS?

Mark 8:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Many other times he said "whosoever will"

question: Does God always get what he wants? NO!!!!

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] ....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

GOD doesn't want nobody to go to hell, but they do everyday.

Chosen IN CHRIST!
Not just chosen, but chosen IN HIM!
Does He then UN-choose us OUT of Himself?!
Think on this 3 minute clip.
https://vimeo.com/150928122

 

[Goodnewsman]

the prodical son was a son but did not the FATHER say "he was DEAD, he was LOST"

so you believe God chose some of us to go to heaven and chose some to go to hell?

how do you know if your chosen?

few questions to ponder:

matthew 5:41 said HELL was prepared for the devil and his angels. have you ever read were Hell was prepared for mankind?

doesn't your doctrine make a liar of JESUS?

Mark 8:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Many other times he said "whosoever will"

question: Does God always get what he wants? NO!!!!

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] ....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

GOD doesn't want nobody to go to hell, but they do everyday.

 

[BenFTW]

Jesus paid for the sin's of the whole world, but does that mean that the whole world will be saved?

God's desire is that none perish, but man has free will. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world but that doesn't mean Universalism but all inclusive (I,e, meaning all are invited). So will the whole world be saved? No. One must place faith in Jesus to receive that forgiveness of sins, you have to believe.

 

[Goodnewsman]

look at the prodical son, did not the FATHER say "he was DEAD" and "he was LOST"

Chosen IN CHRIST!
Not just chosen, but chosen IN HIM!
Does He then UN-choose us OUT of Himself?!
Think on this 3 minute clip.
https://vimeo.com/150928122

 

[Goodnewsman]

ok, just checking. JGIG trying to teach HYPER-GRACE was telling me that just because Jesus died for the whole world (1john 2:2) and that was "future sins" that all our (ie Christians) future sins are forgiven before we even commit them....I know crazy huh

thanks for clearing that up, mybe JGIG will read what you said.

God's desire is that none perish, but man has free will. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world but that doesn't mean Universalism but all inclusive (I,e, meaning all are invited). So will the whole world be saved? No. One must place faith in Jesus to receive that forgiveness of sins, you have to believe.

 

[JGIG]

ok, just checking. JGIG trying to teach HYPER-GRACE was telling me that just because Jesus died for the whole world (1john 2:2) and that was "future sins" that all our (ie Christians) future sins are forgiven before we even commit them....I know crazy huh

thanks for clearing that up, mybe JGIG will read what you said.

Jesus paid for the sin's of the whole world, but does that mean that the whole world will be saved?

Goodnewsman, two things:

1. All of your sins were in the future when Christ did the Work of the Cross. If they didn't get forgiven then, you're out of luck.
2. Only those who receive what Christ has done will be saved. I made that clear in the OP. I re-posted it below and made that specific part big so you wouldn't miss it .

-JGIG

The following is a quote from another thread by one who has come to be one of the main opponents to what they believe is a false belief system.

While I admire their passion, I'm a little surprised at their quickness to believe things that are spoken about those who preach the Gospel of Grace (labeled 'Hyper Grace' by authors/teachers/preachers who mix Law and Grace).

Why so many 'Hyper-Grace' threads?

Most of those threads have not been 'Hyper Grace' (as one poster was accused of making - I went through the list of threads he's started - all 87), but have been threads of encouragement to build you believers up in who you are in Christ! Most of the rest have been either attacks by others based on false information about on 'Hyper-Grace' or defenses against those attacks by those who have been seeking to build others UP in their faith.

The mis-perceptions about the Gospel of Grace are many, and one good example is below:


Yet Scripture says:

30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” (from 1 Cor. 1)

​

We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (from 2 Cor. 5)​

Yes, we are either born of the Spirit or we are not, and it is a gift from God - agreed.

Your next sentence gives a false dichotomy, however: "Those who are born again of the Holy Spirit will be able to cease from sin, those who cannot cease from sin are called cursed children in scripture."

Those who are born of the Spirit WILL be able to cease from sin - we always have a choice, yes.

Those who are born of the Spirit, however, CAN STILL SIN, and admit it or not, we - you, me, and every other born-of-the-Spirit believer in this life still DOES sin on occasion. It's not who we are, it's not what we want, but we still DO sin.

And believe it or not, there are born-of-the-Spirit-believers out there who STRUGGLE with sinning - addictions, pride, selfishness, bearing false witness . . .

Since the wages of sin is DEATH and not 'loss of fellowship' or punishment until the 'debt is paid', God has constructed His Gospel so that even when we do sin, Scripture tells us that

1. All of our sins have already been completely forgiven at the Cross (Ps. 103:12, Is. 1:18, Col. 2:13, 1 Jn. 1:9, Acts 10:43***see below, and sooo many others)
2. God chooses to not hold our sins against us (2 Cor. 5:18-19)
3. God declared BEFORE the Cross that in His New Covenant He would CHOOSE to be merciful to our iniquities and remember our sins no more (Is. 43:25, Jer. 31:34, Heb. 8:12)

*** Acts 10:43. What I love about forums like this (and I'm being real here - I really do love this part), is that, for me, I'm pushed to the Scriptures to see what God has to say on a matter. When a belief that I hold is challenged, I go to the Scriptures, go to the Greek when a word's definition is needing clarification/definition, consider context, etc., I'm willing to dive in to see what's what. With that in mind, and for your consideration, here's Acts 10:43:

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
​

Remission - G859 - aphesis​

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

So in reality, after 'whosoever believeth in Him' believes in Him, they are released from bondage and have received forgiveness/pardon of sins - as if they had never been committed!

That's how God can say that He chooses to be merciful to and remember no more our sins while still being JUST. His Justice was satisfied at the Cross.

That's how we can be free from the power of sin:

​

9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. (from Rom. 6)​

That is the message of the Gospel of Grace - you are a forgiven person, now go out an live as who you are in Christ!

All this 'Hyper-Grace' condemnation is very misplaced - those condemning the Gospel of Grace are condemning the very tenets of the faith that they claim to embrace.

Boasting in God and His Gospel (Good News),
-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

Forgiveness is a done deal bought for by the blood of our Lord. Despite what our religious upbringing has taught us. This is what scripture has to say about forgiveness but men's made up terms to support their religious views.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

Perfect Tense

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous state and that was put on them....not something they did


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Here are some more scriptures on the forgiveness of God thru the precious blood of our Lord!....


Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...and look...that hyper-grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work

 

[Bookends]

I agree (not that really means a thing) and really was what I was saying. I also want to say I understand what is meant when these things I gave in my examples mean as well, my only point in all this is when I was not truly saved, when I thought I was a Christian they gave me a false hope, they had me secure in my false salvation. That is the only reason I ever say anything about it, other than that now I have ears to hear and eyes to see, I agree with the points given. I'm not just trying to be argumentative, or even say anyone is wrong. So cool, and have a great day. 8^)

Jimbone, question; do you think it possible for a Christian who's testimony similar to yours, after your true conversion, to for whatever reason apostatized and put down the faith, deny Christ, for the rest of his/her life and still have eternal salvation?

 

[Willie-T]

I made up a little short story for you folks. Do you like it? Does it remind you of anything?

It reminds me of a man who likes to accuse others of "twisting Scriptures", doing exactly that. It is shameful that you would put quotes around some Elizabethan-sounding words, trying to play them off as though you had actually quoted the Bible.... hoping no one would call you on it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

can you HYPER GRACE folks not see that your doctrine closely resembles the doctrine of indulgences in the roman church, which sparked the reformation in Luther's day?

both teach that sin may be forgiven before it is committed.

the whole 2 chapter of James cries out against this.

Why don't you elaborate a bit on this?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It reminds me of a man who likes to accuse others of "twisting Scriptures", doing exactly that. It is shameful that you would put quotes around some Elizabethan-sounding words, trying to play them off as though you had actually quoted the Bible.... hoping no one would call you on it.

What a silly accusation. It was a parody. I never said or pretended that what I wrote was in the bible. The next one I write will have to be about how legalistic you and JGIG are.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Chosen IN CHRIST!
Not just chosen, but chosen IN HIM!
Does He then UN-choose us OUT of Himself?!
Think on this 3 minute clip.
https://vimeo.com/150928122

Why are people so deaf to the words that some people unchoose the lord?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So it's not the Blood of Christ that provides for our salvation, but our ability to forgive others?

-JGIG

GOD is the one who forgives, not the blood. He said to forgive else you won't be forgiven.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Has anyone noticed how dogmatic and legalistic hypergrace devotees are? They assiduously follow rules and regulations sanctioned by their elders about how to believe what grace is. I wonder if staunch hypergrace churches throw members out who disagree with their teachings?