GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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you stick in the old testament I will live in the New.

Matthew 4:4
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

John 8
31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 17:17

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalms 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:105
Thy word is a lamp18 unto my feet, and a light unto my path.


Can't have the old without the new or you will walk in darkness..........................

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God? Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God? Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
Romans 9:30-33
[FONT=&quot]30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[/FONT]
 
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Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Yes I love those scriptures Grandpa, thanks for sharing. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. No one is telling anyone that you are saved by the works of the law. We are all saved by faith alone. However God' says if your faith does not have the fruit of obedience your faith is dead and you are still in your sins and do not know God (Ephesians 2:8-10; Matthew 7:17-27; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:2-4: 1 John 3:3-9; Hebrews 10:26-27; James 2:18; 20; 26)

Sin is breaking God's Law (10 commandments; 1 John 3:4) if we break God's Law we stand guilty before God in sin and if we do not repent and confess our sins the wages of sin is death because we have refused the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27). James tells us that if we break one of God's commandments we stand before God of breaking all his law (James 2:8-12).

The 4th commandments the 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-12) if we knowingly break it just like any other commandment we stand before God in sin...

Now in times of ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (Acts 17:30-31).

Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.....
 
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Hi Lovegodforever,
Thank you for your posts, They clearly show what you believe. As I have said before you start of with great energy, you almost say all the right things to give an air of authenticity to the gospel. However it becomes very clear that although you say we are saved by faith alone (in red above) you then go on to show that you mean faith that is accompanied by works of the law (in blue above).
My dear friend, I write this from genuine concern for you. Hizikyah has posted to you the scriptures on faith and works in James, so there is not much more that needs to be said there. If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience you do not have the faith that God wants you to have and are still in your sins. Genuine faith works by love and love is the fulfilling of God's Law in those who walk in his Spirit and see him who loves all. Love does no ill towards his neighbor therefore love is the fulfilling of God's Law. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Faith without works is dead and is the reason Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments.

If someone is professing to be a Christian and is living a life in known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state? You do not believe that someone that is living a life of sin while professing to follow God is in a saved state before God do you? (see Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8, 1 John 3:3-10; 1 John 2:2-4: James 2:8-12; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10 etc etc etc)

This is another gospel. You equate being obedient in Faith to being obedient to the works of the law. You do not seem to have quite understood what it means to 'walk in the Spirit' nor understand Christs work on our behalf.
Well that is not true at all. I have already shared with you what I believe and that is that we are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. Now as I have already stated to you what I believe and you keep saying that I am saying and believing something different is this being honest?

If is God's Word that says that obedience is the fruit of faith not that we are saved by our obedience and if we do not have it we do not have genuine faith (Matthew 7:17-27)

Ephesians 2
8 We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast 9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10, FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP , created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which GOD HAS BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

What is grace for...................

Romans 1
5, By whom WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name:

Romans 5
15, But not as the offense, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the GRACE OF GOD BY THE GIFT OF GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL REIGN IN LIFE by one, Jesus Christ.)

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might GRACE REIGN THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO ETERNAL LIFE by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6
1, What shall we say then? SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN, THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND? 2, GOD FORBID. HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN LIVE ANY LONGER THEREIN?
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Hebrews 10
26, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12
14, FOLLOW PEACE WITH ALL MAN, AND HOLINESS, WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD:
15, Looking diligently LEST ANY MAN FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

It is God's Word and not mine that says that Grace is for obedience to the faith. We are saved by faith indeed but obedience is the fruit of faith. If it is missing from your life your faith is dead and you are still in your sins and do not know God.

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God? Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

May God bless all who seek him and find him through His Word...
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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The thread misses the real issue. Which covenant are you under? The Mosaic covenant gave us the Law. To what purpose?

The Law's intent is to persuade mankind that we can NOT satisfy God's standard of righteousness by our own efforts.

Enoch, Noah, Shem, Job, and Abraham were all declared righteous without the Law.

David was declared by God to be "a man after mine own heart" after David had sinned with Bathsheba.

Under the new Covenant, we are told that God's grace through faith alone brings to us the righteousness of Jesus;
and there is nothing we can do to add anything to what God has done.

If after understanding that truth you choose to keep the Sabbath (as I do) That is fine as long as you understand that nobody's relationship with God, including your own, depends on it.
 
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Hi MarcR,

Thanks for your post. Some comments for your consideration below..............

The thread misses the real issue. Which covenant are you under? The Mosaic covenant gave us the Law. To what purpose? The Law's intent is to persuade mankind that we can NOT satisfy God's standard of righteousness by our own efforts
We are under the New Covenant. What does this have to do with God's Law (10 commandments) have to do with the New Covenant? To understand the purpose of God's Law (10 commandments) you need to understand their role because God's Law unlike the laws of Moses (ceremonial, sacrificial, Levitical, civil), are the standard of sin and righteousness that give mankind the knowledge of good and evil (1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20). God's Law is the standard of sin and righteousness in the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the judgement to come that we will all be judged by in the great day of the Lord.

What is the difference and roles of God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses .................................

(1)God’s Law (10 commandments)
Purpose;
reveals what sin and righteousness (right doing) is and the describes the penalty for sin (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come. (Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1 John 3:5-8; 1 John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14)

(2) The laws of Moses (Levitical, ceremonial, sacrificial)
Purpose; was the
prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings for sin, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation and provided a cure for sin through animal sacrifice and food and drink offerings and yearly sin atonement's for God’s people. (Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; not exhaustive there are many more).

Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross and shadows of things to come......

Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15; John 3:16).

God's Law is forever and the standard of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come.....

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). '

In the New Covenant; God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). He that says I know him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4) Obedience to God’s Law is the fruit of faith that works by love and fulfills God's Law in us who walk by faith and not by sight and walking in God's Spirit one does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Faith in God's Word is the power of God unto salvation. Salvation is by faith alone, it is the great gift of God to those who walk in the Spirit who have faith in the Word of creation to live a life of Godliness and Holiness. If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed...... Salvation is from sin not in sin... If we break one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12). Please friend do not take my word for it please pray and ask God and check the scriptures provided here to see if it is true or not for yourself....

Who should we believe God or man?
 
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Enoch, Noah, Shem, Job, and Abraham were all declared righteous without the Law.
David was declared by God to be "a man after mine own heart" after David had sinned with Bathsheba. Under the new Covenant, we are told that God's grace through faith alone brings to us the righteousness of Jesus; and there is nothing we can do to add anything to what God has done. If after understanding that truth you choose to keep the Sabbath (as I do) That is fine as long as you understand that nobody's relationship with God, including your own, depends on it.
How do you know they did not know God's Law of love on which all the law and the prophets hang that fulfills God's Law?

God's people before God's Law was given in stone to show the knowledge of sin and righteousness (good and evil) were saved the same way that we are today (Hebrews 11). God's Word does not say that those before God gave the 10 commandments on stone did not know God's Law does it?

Lets see what God's Word says........................

God’s Word defines sin as “the transgression of the law” ( 1 John 3:4 ) or “lawlessness” (New King James Version , NIV). Therefore, “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15). This is what the Bible clearly says! So do we find transgressions o f the Ten Commandments described as sinful before Mt. Sinai?

Clearly we do...................

For example, Genesis 13:13 tells us that “the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.” Since sin is violating God’s law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.

Here is a clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and Genesis 39:7-9 describe adultery as “a great sin” and a “sin against God.” Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment .


In Genesis 3:6-17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments . They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment .

In Genesis 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments .

In Exodus 16:4, several days to several weeks before God established His covenant with the Israelite's at Mt. Sinai, we find God giving them a test to see “whether they will walk in My law or not.” His test involved whether they would rest on the seventh-day Sabbath as He commanded in the Fourth Commandment of that law—with which they were at least partly familiar. The seventh day had been hallowed—set aside as holy by God—from the time of Adam and Eve and made for mankind at creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28).

God’s reaction to their disobedience is revealing. He exclaims, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?” (Exodus 16:28). God clearly speaks of both His “commandments and … laws” as already existing and in force well before He listed the Ten Commandments verbally at Mt. Sinai, as described four chapters later! Therefore, the Ten Commandments were only codified —written in stone as part of a formal covenant—at Mt. Sinai. Scripture clearly shows that they existed and were in force well before then.

This is stated explicitly in Genesis 26:5, where God tells Isaac that He blessed his father Abraham “because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” This event took place centuries before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, centuries before Moses and two generations before Judah, head of the tribe that much later would become known as the Jews, was born!

In Leviticus 18:21-27, God calls the idolatrous practices of the people of the land of Canaan “abominations”—actions so filthy and degrading that God compared their expulsion to being “vomited out” of the land (Leviticus 18:28). What was their sin? Among other things, idolatry (the worship of false gods) and human sacrifice, which violated the First, Second and Sixth Commandments .

The Bible shows that the Ten Commandments did not originate with Moses or in his time. Nor were they in any way limited only to the Jews. They were in effect and known long before Moses or a people known as the Jews existed. They are the foundation of God’s laws that show us how to love God (defined by the first four Commandments) and how to love our fellow man (defined by the last six).

Did Abraham keep God's commandments...............

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Were the ceremonial laws for sin offerings known before God gave the 10 commandments and Moses wrote the ceremonial laws for sin? Now it must be very clear, if God's people were practicing ceremonial offerings for sin they would have known God's Law (10 commandments) because sin is the transgression of God's Law and the knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, James 2:11). Otherwise why the need to offer up sin offering if they did not know what sin was?

Before God's 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses were given....

Genesis 4:2-7
2, And she again bare his brother Abel.2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3, And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4, And Abel, he also brought of the first-lings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5, But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7, If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted ? and if thou do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Exodus 10:25
But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.

Abraham saved the same way everyone is and that is by faith that leads to obedience...

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So it is quite clear that God's people before Mount Sinai had God's Law and the ceremonial laws for sin offerings pointing to Jesus.......

Now does our salvation depend on obedience. No we are saved by grace through Faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God. If our faith does not have the fruit of faith which is obedience are we in a saved state before God or an unsaved state?

If our faith does not have love that produces the fruit of obedience, God's Word says it is a dead faith and not saving faith ( James 2:18; 20; 26 ). If we knowingly break any of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of committing sin.

If we continue in unrepentant sin we are in danger of the judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Corinthians 6:9: James 2:8-12)

The 4th commandment ( Exodus 20: 8-11) is one of the 10 commandments just the same as we have do not commit murder, stealing or lying (James 2:8-12).

The 4th commandment has been replaced by the teachings and traditions of man that break God's Law. Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of man that brake the commandments of God, or the Word of God?
 
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LGF, I think you are a captain in David's army.

For me, it is enough if we found just once in the holy scripture,
"and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable" Isa 58:13

But scripture is full of important mentions of, and instructions for, keeping the sabbath.
It is a perpetual covenant.
It is the sign between us and Him.
We must make it holy. I repeat, we must make it holy.
It is when the Lord sanctifies us.

And that is the moment that all the faith sayers say we are looking for.
The moment they are claiming to have achieved, or been granted.
But if they were truly sanctified by Jesus, then they have made at least one acceptable sacrifice.
Isn't it.
But one feast with the Lord wasn't the end of it for me.
There was so much more I still had to learn about God's word,
so sabbath making became a regular thing for me.
It is how I get to come before Jesus.
He has appeared to me outside of sabbath, but only rarely.
And only rarely has He not appeared when I make a sabbath (once I had learned how to make it right).
My longest I went for seventeen days, and felt I could have gone on longer, but my vacation time ended and I had to go back to work.

But my point here is, we have to make the sabbath, to get before Jesus.
That turning, that fasting and that praying, that groaning in the spirit that got you to Jesus that time,
that is how you should keep making the sabbaths.
Get Him to come again.
And again and again.

We need a lot help, when it comes to fulfilling the law.

And if you made an acceptable offering once, surely you can do it again.
But, if we prefer to join some club called "we are the chosen ones" and following them in chanting "by Faith" and "by Grace"
over making God's sabbaths,
that option is open to us also.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath,
to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 31:16
 
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Hi MarcR.

Do you mind if I part your meat offering?

The thread misses the real issue. Which covenant are you under? The Mosaic covenant gave us the Law. To what purpose?
The covenant I am under, Jesus made it with me in the field.

When I prayed, and Jesus came, this is the covenant He made with me,
"For as long as you keep all of the Father's words, I will be with you."
"And should you depart from the word, I shall depart from you, and you shall not remember Me".

So I don't know if you can imagine what you are asking of me.

The Law's intent is to persuade mankind that we can NOT satisfy God's standard of righteousness by our own efforts.
Can I ask you
how you suppose you know about the law, when you have forsaken it yourself?

You are talking to some teachers of the law here,
confessing you don't even follow it, and supposing you know it better than them that keep it, and live by it.

That's like telling your motor mechanic how to fix your car when you know diddly-squat about mechanics,
and believe me, I have seen plenty of them too.

Enoch, Noah, Shem, Job, and Abraham were all declared righteous without the Law.
You are wrong there.
The scripture from Genesis telling how Abraham was faithful because he kept all the law has been posted in this thread already.

And unless you can show that the others didn't keep the law, you are just guessing there.

Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth,
and lay up His words in thine heart.

Job 22:22

David was declared by God to be "a man after mine own heart" after David had sinned with Bathsheba.
And if thou wilt walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as thy father David did walk,
then I will lengthen thy days.

1 Kings 3:14

Under the new Covenant, we are told that God's grace through faith alone brings to us the righteousness of Jesus;
and there is nothing we can do to add anything to what God has done.
Tell me,
Do you think we that keep God's words do so because we haven't got faith in Him?

You replaced the law with faith.
Now your faith is in Faith, that your Faith will save you.
But I have news for you. It is Jesus that saves.
And Jesus is the word, the Son of God.

If after understanding that truth you choose to keep the Sabbath (as I do) That is fine as long as you understand that nobody's relationship with God, including your own, depends on it.
Here is more news.
God's word in scripture is the truth.
And God's word is Jesus.

Many say old covenant new covenant for a convenient excuse to forsake the law.
In truth there is but one perpetual covenant.
God makes it new in us when we converted.

The question is,
shall men go on to follow Jesus after they are circumcised of Him,
or shall their circumcision become uncircumsicion?

The foreskins of the heart grow back very quickly if we let them.
Paul
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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The thread misses the real issue. Which covenant are you under? The Mosaic covenant gave us the Law. To what purpose?

The Law's intent is to persuade mankind that we can NOT satisfy God's standard of righteousness by our own efforts.

Enoch, Noah, Shem, Job, and Abraham were all declared righteous without the Law.

David was declared by God to be "a man after mine own heart" after David had sinned with Bathsheba.

Under the new Covenant, we are told that God's grace through faith alone brings to us the righteousness of Jesus;
and there is nothing we can do to add anything to what God has done.

If after understanding that truth you choose to keep the Sabbath (as I do) That is fine as long as you understand that nobody's relationship with God, including your own, depends on it.

Hi MarcR,

Good post. I have already stated the above in one of the many law keeping threads. There is nothing wrong with anyone holding or observing the Sabbath, if it is part of tradition because you are Jewish or a gentile who just wants to sit with their friends etc. As you state it becomes another gospel when start to observe it for any part of your salvation. Good post.

However, in saying that I see you have upset the legalists.
 
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Hi MarcR, Good post. I have already stated the above in one of the many law keeping threads. There is nothing wrong with anyone holding or observing the Sabbath, if it is part of tradition because you are Jewish or a gentile who just wants to sit with their friends etc. As you state it becomes another gospel when start to observe it for any part of your salvation. Good post. However, in saying that I see you have upset the legalists.
Seems like sticks and stones and eyes wide shut. Who cares for brotherly love and God's Word, when traditions and the teachings of men must be followed? There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. Your Words are not directed towards me but to the one who the Word belongs. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house names, how much more shall they call them of his household? There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him.

Can you guess the scriptures quoted above?
 
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This is another gospel. You equate being obedient in Faith to being obedient to the works of the law. You do not seem to have quite understood what it means to 'walk in the Spirit' nor understand Christs work on our behalf.
You mentioned another Gospel? There is another Gospel indeed but it is not what you think it is. Let's see what God's Word says.....................

2Corinthians 11
3, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4, For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

What is the false Gospel?

The false Gospel is one that tries to separate God's Law from Grace and faith.............

Why, and what does God's Word say?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is ( 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 24 ). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "F or as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God ( Romans 3:19 ). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Word s so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old a nd the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Saviour and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of God’s Word. ( 2 Peter 1:4 ) It is here as we believe God that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfillment of His new Covenant promise ( Hebrews 8:10-12 )......

Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law ( 1 John 3:4 ) whosoever is living in known sin has neither seen him nor known him (1 John 3:6).

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God? Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). I worry about you my friend.

All of us need to seek him while he may be found call upon him while he is near. We all only have today. Tomorrow may be too late for some but he is always ready to be found by those who seek him. God's Sheep hear His voice.......
 
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The law of the faith, the law of Christ working in hearts of men to both will and do His good pleasure is through any dispensation. It not exclusively a new testament principle it has its roots from the beginning the garden the foundation of the world.

Enoch, Noah, Shem, Job, and Abraham were all declared righteous because Christ fulfilled the law as the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world..They like us will be found with no righteousness of their own self.
 

valiant

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Yes I love those scriptures Grandpa, thanks for sharing. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. No one is telling anyone that you are saved by the works of the law. We are all saved by faith alone. However God' says if your faith does not have the fruit of obedience your faith is dead and you are still in your sins and do not know God (Ephesians 2:8-10; Matthew 7:17-27; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:2-4: 1 John 3:3-9; Hebrews 10:26-27; James 2:18; 20; 26)
That is true, but it is a consequence of God saving us not a condition.

Sin is breaking God's Law (10 commandments; 1 John 3:4)
1 John 3.4 is not talking about the ten commandments. It says that 'sin is lawlessness', talking about a general attitude to law..

if we break God's Law we stand guilty before God in sin and if we do not repent and confess our sins the wages of sin is death because we have refused the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27). James tells us that if we break one of God's commandments we stand before God of breaking all his law (James 2:8-12).
We have all broken God's law. But we are justified freely by grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.. Once that has happened the law is neutralised. Our justification is in Him alone. We stand before God righteous in Him. We are dead to the Law through the body of Christ.


The 4th commandments the 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-12) if we knowingly break it just like any other commandment we stand before God in sin...
The 'ten commandments' are not ten commandments as such. They are part of God's covenant with ISRAEL. They are not binding on us. We are subjected to a higher law, the law of Christ.

The Sabbath law was just a shadow of what was to come, our rest in Christ,

Now in times of ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (Acts 17:30-31).
Not by the covenant with Israel but 'in righteousness'.

Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
But He is not referring to the ten commandments which are part of God's covenant with temporal Israel. He never once introduced the Sabbath law even when referring to God's commands.


Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?
We believe the word of GOD
 
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The 'ten commandments' are not ten commandments as such. They are part of God's covenant withISRAEL. They are not binding on us. We are subjected to a higher law, the law of Christ.
One perfect law, one law keeper.

God is no respecter of persons (the clay he forms Christ in) he purifies the heart of a Gentile unbeliever giving them the Holy Spirit just as he would a Jewish unbeliever .(no faith, no difference)

The Sabbath law was just a shadow of what was to come, our rest in Christ,
It’s all one law.Not to come but one that is already here from the foundation of the world. .

Those commandments (10) as laws represent the whole perfect law of God. One is set aside as ceremonial to be performed in ceremonies and is not moral law by which we must judge or evaluate one another .

It’s a shadow that points to our rest as the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world the six days he did work. Not from the demonstration of that finished work which was represented as the cross. A demonstration of that not seen .The lamb of God who poured out his Spirit not seen.. again slain from the foundation of the world.

Shadows work two ways depending on where the light comes from. The demonstration is a shadow coming from the light of the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. The six days he did work. We enter His rest (thee seventh day) every time we do not harden our hearts when we hear His living abiding Word.

2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
 

Grandpa

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Originally Posted by Grandpa

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Yes I love those scriptures Grandpa, thanks for sharing. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. No one is telling anyone that you are saved by the works of the law. We are all saved by faith alone. However God' says if your faith does not have the fruit of obedience your faith is dead and you are still in your sins and do not know God (Ephesians 2:8-10; Matthew 7:17-27; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:2-4: 1 John 3:3-9; Hebrews 10:26-27; James 2:18; 20; 26)

Sin is breaking God's Law (10 commandments; 1 John 3:4) if we break God's Law we stand guilty before God in sin and if we do not repent and confess our sins the wages of sin is death because we have refused the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27). James tells us that if we break one of God's commandments we stand before God of breaking all his law (James 2:8-12).

The 4th commandments the 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-12) if we knowingly break it just like any other commandment we stand before God in sin...

Now in times of ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (Acts 17:30-31).

Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.....
Either you didn't read those scriptures or your reading comprehension is really poor.

Romans 9:30-33 is about righteousness. Its not talking about salvation.

If your philosophy were correct then Romans 9:30-33 would say that those who follow after the Law DO attain to the righteousness of the law. But it says the opposite. Therefore destroying all your philosophy about Righteousness and about sin.

IF a person is breaking the law and in sin they can't be righteous at the same time. So, in your philosophy, Romans 9:30-33 is false. There is no possibility that someone who doesn't follow the law could ever be righteous. Because by your philosophy they would be in sin.

It just goes to show that you have no understanding of the New Testament or of what the Lord Jesus Christ has done and continues to do for us.

But people who are already Christians know that. Only Judaizers and legalists still contend for following the law.
 

gb9

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Either you didn't read those scriptures or your reading comprehension is really poor.

Romans 9:30-33 is about righteousness. Its not talking about salvation.

If your philosophy were correct then Romans 9:30-33 would say that those who follow after the Law DO attain to the righteousness of the law. But it says the opposite. Therefore destroying all your philosophy about Righteousness and about sin.

IF a person is breaking the law and in sin they can't be righteous at the same time. So, in your philosophy, Romans 9:30-33 is false. There is no possibility that someone who doesn't follow the law could ever be righteous. Because by your philosophy they would be in sin.

It just goes to show that you have no understanding of the New Testament or of what the Lord Jesus Christ has done and continues to do for us.

But people who are already Christians know that. Only Judaizers and legalists still contend for following the law.
exactly. they try to point back to the Torah, not upward toward Christ.
 

Grandpa

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exactly. they try to point back to the Torah, not upward toward Christ.
Its funny that they use scripture to try and convince others of their philosophy but they don't understand the very scripture that they post.

Acts 15:10 [FONT=&quot]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

[/FONT]
I have to say none of us just naturally understood from birth. It was given as a gift just like everything else, righteousness, salvation, obedience, Revelation and Knowledge of Christ...

Ephesians 1:17-23
[FONT=&quot]17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.[/FONT]
 

prove-all

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The good news! In Christ all sins where paid for past,present and future
The bible says if you accept the blood of Christ, past sins are forgiven,
this does not say all your future sins are to be covered at that point does it ?


Romans 3:25 (KJV)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;

1 John 1:8 (KJV)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1 John 1:6 (KJV)
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,
we lie, and do not the truth:


1 John 2:1 (KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Hebrews 10:26 (KJV)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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The 'ten commandments' are not ten commandments as such. They are part of God's covenant withISRAEL. They are not binding on us. We are subjected to a higher law, the law of Christ.
One perfect law, one law keeper.
Precisely, the law of Christ, not ten words which were to guide Israel's lives of which one ensured that all people had a day of rest.

God is no respecter of persons (the clay he forms Christ in) he purifies the heart of a Gentile unbeliever giving them the Holy Spirit just as he would a Jewish unbeliever .(no faith, no difference)
again precisely. And He did it long before Israel's personal terms were written. There is no reference to the law of the Sabbath in Abraham's covenant.


It’s all one law.Not to come but one that is already here from the foundation of the world. .
We do not know the 'one law' given from the foundation of the world. God gave many laws, at different times to different people. But we do know that the law of the Sabbath had reference to ISRAEL only,

So not the law of the Sabbath which was a sign to Israel of the rest to come.

Those commandments (10) as laws represent the whole perfect law of God.
Who says there were ten? Ten words were given to ISRAEL. They were instructions to them. But God had many laws.

One is set aside as ceremonial to be performed in ceremonies and is not moral law by which we must judge or evaluate one another .
The ancient world knew no difference between laws. To them ALL laws were God-given. They did not separate between moral laws and ceremonial laws.

It’s a shadow that points to our rest as the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world the six days he did work.
I'm sure this means something to you. To me it is nonsense,
 
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