lol yeah, I had to go back and read a few more posts to get up to speed.
Ok, I see where you're coming from. Well, you aren't wrong...Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD was indeed wrath. But I don't think that's the only wrath being referred to. I think he was speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Let me see if I can make a good argument for why.
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To set the foundation, recall what Paul explains in Romans...
Romans 1:16-18
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
So just like salvation is offered to all people: first to the Jew and then to the gentile...so does wrath fall upon all unrighteous people: first upon the Jew and then upon the gentile.
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Next, who is Paul talking to in his letters to Thessalonians?
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
1 Thess 1:1-4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Romans 11:5-7 [brackets mine]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So the church in Thessalonica is comprised of:
- Remnant (elected) Jews (who believe the gospel)
- Believing Gentiles (grafted in)
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...So when we're reading these letters the audience isn't exclusively gentiles OR jews, and I think the language bears this out in certain chapters. For example, in 1 Thess 2:14-17.
1 Thess 2:14-17
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous.
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Ok, I see where you're coming from. Well, you aren't wrong...Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD was indeed wrath. But I don't think that's the only wrath being referred to. I think he was speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Let me see if I can make a good argument for why.
-----
To set the foundation, recall what Paul explains in Romans...
Romans 1:16-18
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
So just like salvation is offered to all people: first to the Jew and then to the gentile...so does wrath fall upon all unrighteous people: first upon the Jew and then upon the gentile.
-----
Next, who is Paul talking to in his letters to Thessalonians?
Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
1 Thess 1:1-4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Romans 11:5-7 [brackets mine]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So the church in Thessalonica is comprised of:
- Remnant (elected) Jews (who believe the gospel)
- Believing Gentiles (grafted in)
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...So when we're reading these letters the audience isn't exclusively gentiles OR jews, and I think the language bears this out in certain chapters. For example, in 1 Thess 2:14-17.
1 Thess 2:14-17
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous.
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Greetings. It's encouraging to find someone who is clearly a devotee of scripture.
I agree with you on some things but I differ in the second half of your thesis.
Regarding 1 Thessalonians 2:14-17.
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, (symphylétēs) even as they have of the Jews:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
Symphylétēs - one who is of the same people, a fellow-countryman
Actually I think Paul is talking about the Jews specifically, in Thessalonica, persecuting the church there.
Acts 17:4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.5 But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: “These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here, 7 and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.” 8 When they heard this, the crowd and the city officials were thrown into turmoil. 9 Then they made Jason and the others post bond and let them go.10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica
It is clear that there were some very bad Jews in Thessalonica who were the architects of all the trouble. And when Paul says 'even (kai) as (kathos) they have of the Jews' - lit: also according as they have of the Jews -
it is clear that the Thessalonians have suffered at the hands of unbelieving Jews, in the same way that the Churches in Judea have. If not, verse 15 - 'who' ceases to make sense. But this is academic to what you then suggest.
You said: -
'' Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous. ''
No. this is incorrect. It is clearly the Jews upon who the wrath comes.
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, (symphylétēs) even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.