24 Reasons Why Hell Is Real (and why one should reject Universal Salvation).

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Crossfire

Guest
#1
24 Reasons Why Hell Is Real
by David Shibley

Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them.

William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army and a man who dedicated his life to lifting the poor out of sin and poverty, reportedly made this statement: "Most Christian organizations would like to send their workers to Bible college for five years. I would like to send our workers to hell for five minutes. That would prepare them for a lifetime of compassionate ministry." Booth never suggested that the desperate people he served were "already in hell." He believed in a real, eternal hell, and it drove him to rescue people from both their current plight and future perdition.

Shortly before his death in 1912, Booth warned prophetically that he saw coming to the church "forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration ... a heaven without a hell."

In today's theological fog, his ominous caveat is unfolding. Even some who claim to believe the Bible are having second thoughts about eternal judgment, and others have rejected the notion of judgment altogether. The name usually given this teaching is Universalism.

Universalism basically is the belief that all people will be saved. Jesus' death and resurrection will automatically, or at least eventually, save the whole human race. Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the "good news" that they are already saved.

But does Scripture teach that everyone will be saved? There is overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.

I'd like to offer 24 reasons to reject Universalism. You may be able to add a few of your own.

1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).

3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).

4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).

5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).

6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).

7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).

8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).

9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).

11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).

12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).

13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).

14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).

15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).

16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).

17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).

18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).

20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).

21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).

In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.

22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.

23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.

24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.


Unbroken Hearts

It needs to be said clearly that God's character is not on trial. The judge of all the earth will do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). Our faith is on trial. Our hearts are on trial. But God is not on trial. Whatever judgment He makes regarding those who have not responded to the gospel will be executed according to His standards of equally perfect righteousness and love.

When we ponder God's mercy, this whole issue is inverted. Because God is perfectly holy, the wonder is not that some will be lost. The greater wonder is that anyone from rebellious humanity will be saved! Only Christ's work on the cross could reconcile us to God.

God has put down the most massive roadblock possible to stop humanity's mad rush toward hell. He sent His Son. God intervened personally through Christ. His sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. This is the good news for all who will believe and receive Him.

Espousing Universalism is sad. But rejecting it with no impact on our hearts or change in our priorities is sinister. If we believe that people are lost outside of Christ (and they are), and that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation (and it is), what could possibly be a higher priority than getting the gospel as far as we can as fast as we can?

To pronounce people "saved" who are obviously enslaved by darkness, deception and the devil is surely the cruelest of jokes. We are sent to a lost world with a gospel of power. Our message gives the spiritually blind their sight and liberates those who are chained by Satan. We do not preach that people are forgiven but that they can be forgiven.

I would not want to stand before Jesus Christ as a Universalist. But neither would I want to stand before the Lord as an evangelical who was not evangelistic. What a serious accounting must await us if we believe in eternal torment for those without faith in Christ--and yet do nothing! A recovery of biblical truth and compassionate evangelism are the twin screaming needs of the American church.

The apostle Paul said he would be willing to give up his place in Christ if by such a sacrifice others would be saved (see Rom. 9:2-3). He believed all people outside Christ were lost, and it left him with a broken heart.

More than encroaching Universalism, it is our unbroken hearts that often impede evangelism. Many Christians today have never even heard of "a burden for the lost." The harvest is huge and ready to be reaped by those who are willing to sow first in tears (see Ps. 126:5-6).

Right theology will only indict us if we do not recapture the evangelistic imperative. We must believe the truth, and we must act on what we believe. Let's not just reject faulty theology; let's embrace those who need Jesus.

David Shibley is president of Global Advance, a ministry that provides training and resources for thousands of pastors in developing nations.
 
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Jul 12, 2012
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#2
Sorry to put it this way (tongue in cheek), but people don't seem to respond to more reasonable words.
There's another big reason people will burn forever in eternal torment:

It is God's will that none should perish, but all should come to repentance, and God is incapable of having His will be done, even though He taught us to have a like mindset in prayer, and He stated vainly in non-symbolic language that Christ will reconcile all men.

It's nobody's fault they were taught eternal torment, but it is confusion that calls God evil.
Torment is sinful and sin will be abolished.

"eternal" is an obvious mistranslation that we today had no part in creating, only propagating from a mindset of exclusionism and bloodlust for wrath.

Be free.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#3
Sorry to put it this way (tongue in cheek), but people don't seem to respond to more reasonable words.
There's another big reason people will burn forever in eternal torment:

It is God's will that none should perish, but all should come to repentance, and God is incapable of having His will be done, even though He taught us to have a like mindset in prayer, and He stated vainly in non-symbolic language that Christ will reconcile all men.

It's nobody's fault they were taught eternal torment, but it is confusion that calls God evil.
Torment is sinful and sin will be abolished.

"eternal" is an obvious mistranslation that we today had no part in creating, only propagating from a mindset of exclusionism and bloodlust for wrath.

Be free.
Wolfinsheepshide, can you explain the following three passages?

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Rev 20:10)

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:13-15)


But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Rev 21:8)
 

Tintin

Senior Member
Jan 3, 2013
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#4
Jesus Christ wouldn't have spoken so much about avoiding the dangers of hell and separation from God, if it weren't true. Hell is real, eternal torment is real. God desires all people to be saved but not all choose to receive his gracious living sacrifice in Jesus.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#5
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Rev 20:10)
Fire is a witness to our wrongs. Evidenced by placing one's hand into it, when warned that it is hot.
Brimstone is fire that sticks.
"shall be touch-stoned day and night beyond comprehension"
aeon and olam both meant "beyond comprehension" before aeon was used colloquially for reference to time. The same way I might say "I'll be here till the cows come home"

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:13-15)
"and the grave and hades delivered up" - the grave is the physical grave, and hades is used to represent the state of being dead.

both are cast into the lake of fire, as conditions and concepts, their "selves" to be tested beyond comprehension.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Rev 21:8)
every man dies a physical death and a spiritual death. true repentance followed by physical death, or physical death followed by true repentance in the lake of fire. each man chooses which will be his second death. the second death of the repentant, physical death, has no power, i.e "the dead in Christ shall rise" physically from the ground. the second death of the non-repentant, the lake of fire, has power in that it eventually results in repentance.

believing without seeing, changing the heart in faith, vs. requiring proof, to be placed before the throne.

The lake of fire is likened to the process of refining gold, burning off the bad stuff, leaving only the good, to a point that is beyond our imagination.
Not being tormented forever.

Another language mechanic is used when time and forever are illustrated, which is "for all generations"
and a couple other places where time is explicitly attached to the word "beyond comprehension"

The destruction is not of people, it's of the bad part of people. The corpse of the bad part of a person will remain in their memory as a testimony against further transgression.

The grain and the chaff are on the same stalk.
The wheat and the tares are in one field.
Two men in the bed are the same man.
Etc.

The mistranslations have been allowed explicitly for the purpose of testing the condition of the heart, to read scripture with the idea that God is like man, excessively vindictive, or to read scripture with the idea that God is Set Apart from any of our own crafted likenesses.

In Him there is no darkness at all, and eternal torment is the pinnacle of darkness. It is the worst thing imaginable.
If sin is destroyed, how will the cursed continue to damn God in eternal torment?

The most basic of counter intuitive concepts.

None of the gospel is lost in "universal reconciliation", there is still plenty of reason for people to stop sinning and try to follow Yeshua, and the proper image of the Father, being fair, is one worth seeking.

One that portrays iniquity, "unfairness" is one that says God will torment you forever because you committed a life time of sin, partially even unaware.
 
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Tintin

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The Lake of Fire is very different to being Refined by God's Holiness. Jesus Christ said, "No one comes to the Father, except through me". Then Jesus talks about the fact that he is the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. There's no room for universalism. It's a dangerous, diseased belief.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#7
I've danced around a good while with this. I will let you guys take me out in a blaze of glory, if you'll offer to let me shoot down all the false things we've been taught about eternal torment.

I will never attack you personally, it is not any man that I have a problem with, it's the abomination of desolation that is standing in the temple that we are called to abhor, not each other.
I have no way to threaten you with eternal torment, and no derogatory names to call any of you.
I have no avenue of leaving a discussion thinking that you are "doomed", nor any reason to be angry with any person. No benefit from thinking "less" of someone because they differ with me.
As a matter of fact, I plead for those who hear, because they will truly understand the final points of the sermon on the mount. Ridicule and evil speaking at every turn.

An abomination (excessive punishment for having demons that we did not even solicit, save mentioning those for which we are accountable) and it has indeed caused desolation. People who embrace eternal torment are focused on it instead of dying to self. They have no rest, day or night, as the bible puts it.
Those who are simply mis-taught, and have never given it a second thought, are most of us fortunately.
Not truly guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because we have neither seen Holiness, nor understood blasphemy. Once a person understands it, they don't need to worry about committing it any more.

Good thing is, that if I can't light a candle for you, at least I don't walk away thinking you'll go to hell for differing with me. :p

Peace.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#8
The Lake of Fire is very different to being Refined by God's Holiness. Jesus Christ said, "No one comes to the Father, except through me". Then Jesus talks about the fact that he is the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. There's no room for universalism. It's a dangerous, diseased belief.
But scripture does in fact liken the lake of fire to a touch-stoning process. Striking gold against a testing rock to sample it's purity. If it is not yet pure, it is refined again. "tormented" is an incorrect translation of "basanos", which means "touch stone", and again, please don't take my word for it, one can easily uncover at worst, that "aeon" does not mean "forever", if a time aspect is insisted.

"Salvation", His name, is truly the only way to avoid the lake of fire. Many cry out in His name without having ever heard "Jesus", or seeing a bible. Change of heart and deed are evidence that one has truly cried out for the salvation of all mankind, the blood of the Lamb as opposed to the blood of self.

Observe Salvation,
He healed people that did not solicit forgiveness of sins. He healed them preemptively with compassion.
 

Tintin

Senior Member
Jan 3, 2013
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#9
I have no qualms with you, just with this particular belief of yours. Please continue. How do you know these terms have been incorrectly translated? Where are you doing your research? Do you know Hebrew, Greek and some Aramaic or are you going off the research of others? Just curious.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#10
I have no qualms with you, just with this particular belief of yours. Please continue. How do you know these terms have been incorrectly translated? Where are you doing your research? Do you know Hebrew, Greek and some Aramaic or are you going off the research of others? Just curious.
For starters, I read with various interlinear bibles, not so much now as previously, and once I began to notice the discrepancies in particular with "olam" (hebrew) and "aeon" (greek), I started researching the words as deeply as possible. When I read casually now, it's usually online, and I read with KJV and Young's Literal in parallel. Any time I see another discrepency in those translations, I go once again to the interlinear.

The depth of the research that I have done on "olam" results in the definition of "that imaginary point on the horizon" as if you were trying to see the smallest "pixel" in the distance while staring across the ocean, but you can't see it. The more a scientist tears matter apart, the more he sees the pieces just keep getting smaller and smaller. The more we try and understand "infinity" the bigger and more confusing it gets.
A term to represent "a point that is beyond sight", with no inherent time aspect, only physical and spiritual distance. I can't remember the verses, but there are a couple verses that accentuate the term "beyond comprehension" with additional words to indicate that it applies to time, but those verses were not about punishment.

Research on "aeon" points to it's earliest uses in literature being of the same idea, "beyond comprehension", again with no time aspect, and subsequently being adopted mostly for reference to "a long time" as if to say in reverse, "the line I was standing in went on forever", yet, I was referring to distance.

I don't keep a list of references, but they were "scholarly" works, not from religious websites or places with any agenda one way or the other.

I don't speak greek by any means, study hebrew but not at a conversational level because of lack of people to practice with. I have read the english translations of NT that came from Aramaic (i.e. Peshitta) and stopped on key words to research as well.

From my experience, the gravest mistranslations revolve around the words "hell" (to put a potato into the ground or the cellar), and most related words like "sheol", "hades", etc.
Along with the words translated as "forever" and such.

I'm afraid that if anyone holds me to the requirement of "knowing hebrew" then my best defense is that it would still only go so far, as modern hebrew is guess work on the original language, because vowels were not recorded until long after they had time to "morph". A modern example in English would be "frog", or "dog", spoken by a southerner or a northerner, a vowel morph that occurred in much less time than hebrew had to endure. So, there's still a lot covered up in hebrew, "Joshua" vs. "Yeshua" for example. Exact same name, exact same meaning.

A key element here is that initially, I was not looking for these definitions and mistranslations for the purpose of dismissing eternal torment, but I was very happy to see that the language supported my never having accepted the doctrine, even from my earliest introduction to the concept of God by family and church as a child.

God is indeed eternal, it's a given, but scripture says in a more glorifying effect that He is "beyond comprehension", which captures much more than just "time"
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#11
So our God is eternal but hell is not? Same word.

also
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(Joh 3:36)
Scripture is saying the unbelieving shall not see God' but you seem to deny this by saying after a bit of fiery purging they will. Again this says God's wrath abideth (present tense) on them you seem to think that that is only temporary.
Lastly about 95per cent of scholarly commentators disagree with you on those verses, this doesn't give you reason to be concerned?
 
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nickymohn

Guest
#12
Helli.my name us nicky...I lost my Mother. PAP and Gma..I have been feeling very sad..need a friend..
 
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nickymohn

Guest
#13
Right now Jobe!!!
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#14
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(Joh 3:36)
Scripture is saying the unbelieving shall not see God' but you seem to deny this by saying after a bit of fiery purging they will. Again this says God's wrath abideth (present tense) on them you seem to think that that is only temporary.
Lastly about 95per cent of scholarly commentators disagree with you on those verses, this doesn't give you reason to be concerned?
Yes, I believe that the unbelieving will not see God, however, I see no reason (from this perspective) that they cannot become a believer and see Him. I do not see why there must be an "eternal" declaration of this, again, approaching scripture from a viewpoint that almost all "eternal" language in the bible comes from a mistranslation. Whether in error or malicious intent, I wouldn't be able to speculate.
The wrath does currently abide, and yes I believe it is temporary. Scripture says His wrath comes to an end, to His satisfaction, when the "sinner" is destroyed.
I believe the sinner is the part of us that sins and that part will be burned out, now if we allow it, or later without option, not because it was forced upon us, but because we disobeyed and it is all that is left.

I take much pleasure in the idea that "Salvation" will save me from my ongoing spiritual struggles with others, self and the world, someday ripping out the parts of me that I couldn't conquer myself.
And I take much pleasure in the idea that everyone else that is beaten down by the world will be freed as well.

I am not concerned with being outnumbered by the scholars. I am outnumbered by far more than just the scholars. I'm sure you can imagine what happens when I confront a pastor of a church with this. I don't however see that 95% of scholars disagree, I don't know how to get a percentage, and I am fully aware of the arguments against what I proclaim. From the casual reader's perspective, I'm sure one could guess that 95% of any modern translation disagrees at face value.
I believe the struggle occurs when one questions "burn in hell forever, really? can that be true?" and I believe it is a necessary struggle. I have seen the struggle get easily pushed under the rug in church or casual witnessing. It is easily overpowered by fear of hell for those who seek God, and religion becomes
"ugly" to those who only hear that common one-side depiction of God, or a contradicting one that says "Love" + "Torture" = God
I'm sure most thinking people question it, and find verses to support it. Again though, they only have face value to go with. The thing is though, that while at face value in a modern translation there is language to support eternal torment, there are also some very explicit non-symbolic verses which illustrate Jesus dying for the sins of the world and God's will being for all to repent. Not just a few.
At that point, a reader has a blatant "contradiction" to resolve. Does He save everyone or not?
We either take symbolic punishment language in a tone that reinforces ET, or take literal "all" language and make it apply to a select group rather than "all", and escape into a fear driven "good news".
It really is a fear driven message that is being preached today.
I believe once the mindset of condemnation is established, those "all" verses are overlooked or made into something less.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#15
Yes, I believe that the unbelieving will not see God, however, I see no reason (from this perspective) that they cannot become a believer and see Him. I do not see why there must be an "eternal" declaration of this, again, approaching scripture from a viewpoint that almost all "eternal" language in the bible comes from a mistranslation. Whether in error or malicious intent, I wouldn't be able to speculate.
The wrath does currently abide, and yes I believe it is temporary. Scripture says His wrath comes to an end, to His satisfaction, when the "sinner" is destroyed.
I believe the sinner is the part of us that sins and that part will be burned out, now if we allow it, or later without option, not because it was forced upon us, but because we disobeyed and it is all that is left.

I take much pleasure in the idea that "Salvation" will save me from my ongoing spiritual struggles with others, self and the world, someday ripping out the parts of me that I couldn't conquer myself.
And I take much pleasure in the idea that everyone else that is beaten down by the world will be freed as well.

I am not concerned with being outnumbered by the scholars. I am outnumbered by far more than just the scholars. I'm sure you can imagine what happens when I confront a pastor of a church with this. I don't however see that 95% of scholars disagree, I don't know how to get a percentage, and I am fully aware of the arguments against what I proclaim. From the casual reader's perspective, I'm sure one could guess that 95% of any modern translation disagrees at face value.
I believe the struggle occurs when one questions "burn in hell forever, really? can that be true?" and I believe it is a necessary struggle. I have seen the struggle get easily pushed under the rug in church or casual witnessing. It is easily overpowered by fear of hell for those who seek God, and religion becomes
"ugly" to those who only hear that common one-side depiction of God, or a contradicting one that says "Love" + "Torture" = God
I'm sure most thinking people question it, and find verses to support it. Again though, they only have face value to go with. The thing is though, that while at face value in a modern translation there is language to support eternal torment, there are also some very explicit non-symbolic verses which illustrate Jesus dying for the sins of the world and God's will being for all to repent. Not just a few.
At that point, a reader has a blatant "contradiction" to resolve. Does He save everyone or not?
We either take symbolic punishment language in a tone that reinforces ET, or take literal "all" language and make it apply to a select group rather than "all", and escape into a fear driven "good news".
It really is a fear driven message that is being preached today.
I believe once the mindset of condemnation is established, those "all" verses are overlooked or made into something less.

so God is temporal because eternal wrath is not forever? same word, same question. you can't have it both ways.
 
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MarkayMrk777

Guest
#16
This is appropriate if you can handle Christian rock :)

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_42pb7WsYaM[/video]
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#17
so God is temporal because eternal wrath is not forever? same word, same question. you can't have it both ways.
Well, I fail to see where I imply that God is temporal. His wrath is temporal, stated twice for example in Ezekiel 16 where He puts the harlot through her own wringer to bring about her correction.
It ends with His quiet satisfaction, and her quiet concession.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#18
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).

Do you agree that the Righteous are not judged?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#19
This is appropriate if you can handle Christian rock :)

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_42pb7WsYaM[/video]
yup I listened to hard rock b4 you hit the cradle, no shock here :)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
26,015
413
83
#20
Well, I fail to see where I imply that God is temporal. His wrath is temporal, stated twice for example in Ezekiel 16 where He puts the harlot through her own wringer to bring about her correction.
It ends with His quiet satisfaction, and her quiet concession.
let me put it in other terms for the last time. If the wicked don't suffer eternal (for ever) damnation then neither do the righteous enjoy eternal life for ever. It is the same word...ainos.