24 Reasons Why Hell Is Real (and why one should reject Universal Salvation).

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Tintin

Guest
#81
Yet, read correctly, the bible says that every knee will bow and every mouth will confess.

That means both knees will bow. To confess that Jesus Christ is Lord is to accept Him, by our own modern christian definition.
Thereafter, eternal torment follows for any of those?
WolfInSheep'sClothing,

Philippians 2:5-11

You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,
he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.



Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The Second Coming of Jesus: Yes, but the 'every knee should bow and every tongue confess' means everyone will recognise Jesus is Lord but that for many of them it'll be too late because they rejected him and his Good News. Couple this (in context) with what you know about the nature of God, his wrath at sin and the fact that Jesus Christ 'will return like a thief in the night' and I can't see how God would let sin slide. We were created as immortal beings (in the image of God) but we'll be either immortal in Heaven (and later, the New Heaven and Earth) or immortal in Hell. I don't want even my worst enemy to encounter the full wrath of God by being separated from him forever.
 

rachelsedge

Senior Member
Oct 15, 2012
3,659
79
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#82
Why would Jesus go through the spiritual and physical torment that he did, face something as dramatic as death, and then be raised from the dead three days later if that solution only lead to a temporary fate for those who rejected him? Why would he need to be sacrificed for my sins, in my place, if my punishment FOR those sins was only going to be temporary?
 
Jan 26, 2009
639
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#83
Perhaps we won't.

Was the adulterous woman 'saved'?

Saved from what?

again, you don't need to believe what I believe. It only takes for a person to look up scripture and make up their own minds as to what God speaks to them.
Her sins were forgiven by Christ.
I have looked at the scripture studied bout God z judgement on the wicked n it tells me exactly where they r going.no one comes to the father with out Christ
 
K

Keziah

Guest
#84
It only takes for a person to look up scripture and make up their own minds as to what God speaks to them.
You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. Many people have done evil things and found their justification in the Bible.

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.2 Peter 3:16

Making scripture say something that is not true is a very serious matter.
 
K

Keziah

Guest
#85
The next verse of 2 Peter 3 is worth noting for the rest of us.

17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3:17
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
1
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#86
I'm afraid I didn't find 1 of the arguments as a reason to reject anything about universal salvation. I don't want to sandbag the thread by doing a full reply but this should be enough to start things off.

1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
The are two parts to a single gathering, the one that has a certain group being alive on earth for the period know as the 1,000 year reign and the other gtroup that comes alive after the sentencing of the fallen angels to the fiery lake. The judgement of the p[opel that come after is the ones defined in the GWT verses as the 'Lamb'is there and that symbol for Jesus is not used until the new earth verses are era being referenced.
Np person misses being alive and being in New Jerusalem as mentioned at the end of Re:21.
The new earth will resemble the garden area in Ge:2 before the 'mist of water' was allowed in. The mist of water that comes out of New Jerusalem will restore life to the other flesh that was created in Ge:1 just like the Dead Sea is made healthy in Eze:47 the dust will be made healthy. The sparrows in Luke that are remembered by God will result in all other flesh that had life on this earth will have it restored at the start of the new earth.

2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
The expansion on what happens at the Great White Throne and beyound can be found in Hebrews:12 as showing it is a time of chastisement and forgiveness rather than chastisemant and increased punishment, Wrath is over when that last fallen angel is in the fiery lake. The GWT is what comes right after and it is the resurrection of all the people that weere not alive for the 1,000 year reign. Isaiah:65 is an expansion of the group called 'the rest' in Re:20. Jerusalem in that chapter is New Jerusalem and the people that live inside the walls are the whole of the people that were alive for the 1,000 year reign. They are called 'servants' but the ones making their homes outside of the walls of the city are all the ones that areresurrected at the GWT event. The new earth is the universe and the angels will be with God in the new heaven that is their reward. Mount Sion in Hebrews:12 is where they ascent to.

3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)
Judgment comes on the day the 7th trump sounds. The last verse in Da:11 is when the trumpet sound and the destruction comes in the form of the 7 vials being poured out in a few hours. Right after that comes the resurrection Re:20:4 as it fits in with Re:10 and the first few verses of Da:12 as they are part of the passage that is in Da:11. I can supply enough references to support those verses are saying that everybody that has died before that is asleep and the righteous are resurrected and the others remain asleep so their knowledge of death is like it was a single blink from dying to being alive at the GWT. Job:14

4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Entirely false. The ones alive at the end of the day the 7th trump sounds are the 144,000 and the repentened Gentiles that make up the 'Remnant of the Gentiles' in Zec:14 and the sheep from Matthew:25, call it 'the Church' and they are gathered without dying so they are witnesses to the Re:20:4 resurrection and who that includes. It is the ones who have died as belivers since Peter began to preach to Gentiles in Acts:10 (33AD) and the Gentiles that give glory to God just before the 7th trump sounds in Re:11. There are repented Gentiles before the 1st trump sounds and they areas protected as the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes.
Anyone that enters the grave and goes to sleep is saved as they become alive at judgment. The only people that do not fit that are the ones killed by the 7 vials as they end up in the grave still awake where they can view Satan in chains through a gate that is locked. It is locked when Satan and the fallen angels are released and it remains locked until the GWT event.
The people that are alive for the 1,000 years survive being witness to fallen angels sent to the fiery lake so Jesus has made them that pure during that period rather tghan they were that pure at the start, That process is what entiltles them to live inside the walls of New Jerusalem in the New Earth verses. They become Shepherds to the Flock which is made up of all members of 'the rest' and their first task is to teach them whet they lurned duringt the 1,000 years they were with Jesus. They will learn more so that gap is always maintained so that relationship is also maintained. The Shepherds arealso a static number starting at the beghinning of the 1,000 year reign so they are not given in marriage like angels so their population never increases. The ones that live outside the wall will be given in marraige and they have 100 children per couple. (Isa:65)

5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
The narrow gate gets you a spot with the 1,000 year crowd, the wide gate gets yo a spot at the GWT event instead. There are only two possible choices and one is gathered before the other and the first group is smaller than the other group as in the normal ration when looking as a shepherd/flock relationship. asmaller group first does not mean the next group is smaller.

6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
Jesus is given the task of ckeansing the earth so it is acceptable to God as being what His Kingdom looks like. That is at the end of the 1,000 year reign and that time is used to make Israel look like it would have if sin had never entered the Garden. The 12 tribes and the Church witness fallen angels being sent to the fiery lake. It is not lost onj them that since they are now of the 2nd birth that would be their fate should they ever break ant if the Re:21 Law. People born in the new earh are judged at the age of 120 years and all will be found to be holy so they are given immorality at that time.
Angels that are sent to the fiery lake by Jesus at His return and the ones God sends there later experience that. Men that die on the day of the return experience that until God lets them out at the GWT event.

7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
The 12 Tribes are resurrected as a whole group on the same day many gentiles are sent to the grave. They aremade a whole group at that time while Gentiles are a remant of their whole because oth the two bruises from Ge:3:15. When Jesus said, 'It is finished.' moments before dying on the cross as being all things related to the bruise to the heel from that verse. The bruise to Satan's head involves Gentiles rather than the 12 Tribes. When He says, 'It is done.' as He pours out the last vial it is referencing all things to do with the bruise to Satan's head as being in chains in the Pit is the bruise, God sending him and others to the fiery lake id God's wrath rather than the wrath of Jesus. The resurrections at the GWT make Gentiles as whole as the resurrection according to Eze:37 makes the 12 Tribes whole.
There are two forms of wrath yet to come. The two woes attributed to the 5th and 6th seals is done by satan & Co. and the 3rd and last woe is Christ pouring out the 7 vials on the ones causing trouble during the previous 2 woes.

8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
Makes sense considering Jesus is the 'seed of Eve' in Ge:3:15. Isa:53 says it pleased God to bruise Jesus by sending Him to the grave. That defined what a 'bruise' is from Ge:3:15 is and for mankind it means resurrection from the grave is needed. The bruise to satan's head mean the death associated with 2nd birth so that is an eternal trip rather than the temporary one that is the grave.
The ones the Seas give up are the ones killed by the flood. They are redeemed because they has mothers that were the 'seed of Eve' meaning 5 fingets per hand.
Proverbs:8 is Christ witness of events since before Ge:1:1 and that is the wisdom He wuill use on the day He is required to judge mankind into two groups, alive now or alive later at the GWT wher God is in charge.

9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

There are two groups being referenced rather than two traits of one group. The fallen angesl are vthe 1st group. That view is justified by the references in the Book of Jude and Ge:6. The Beast from the Pit is a fallen angel that was a king until the flood and it is sent to the fiery lake (along with the False prophet) when the 7 vials are being poured out. The fallen angels that were also on earth before the flood are alos part of the groupthat is mentioned as being contaoined by 10,000 Saints in a prophecy by Enoch, that same prophecy is an historical event when Moses mentions those same Saints.
The Pit is a required stop before a fallen angel can be sent to the fiery lake. Once released from that Pit the lake is the only option and that is why Jesus sends 2 to the lake but only puts Satan in chains in the Pit, like the 10,000 saints did during the flood. You can drown their children but ahgels are immortal, they cannot be killed,they can be sent to the fiery lake and that separation is enough that we are safe after that gap is established. The men sent to hell mock Satan the whole time so that is their repenting.
'These' is referncing fallen angels as it says all men appear before God after the fallen angels are in the lake. If men were destined to be there that is when it would have happened.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#87
Well I love my grandma, I don't know if she even believed in God, or anything. She killed her self...


I don't want God to leave my grandma in hell forever. I want to believe I'll see her after this life regardless of whatever tell me I think or how I should believe...


Do you understand? I could give more of an explanation but I wish not too, because of the title alone I'm commenting.

Oh Sister Jessie, I'm sorry your brother killed himself, and He didnt believe in Jesus Christ, Off to Hell for Him FOREVER AND EVER.

I'm sorry little jessie, this is just how it is...

Yeah okay, I believe this is a misrepresentation of the God who is Love.

I believe in total reconcilationism, which most people only see as a fantasy misnomer, but looking at scripture I can I see God very different than those who say God says to hell with them forever and ever and ever and ever.


Now, if someone was to be placed in Hell, which (some) people say last forever, I see it as a duration of time kinda of like prison can't get out till the payment is fully made most sentences last a duration of time, but also a place no one should want to go to. But this place can cause someone to change their mind, from their own mental anguish that could possibly in-sue.

Philippians 2: 9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place,and gave Him the name above all names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Is this a true statement or a lie?

I've have had people tell me oh when they come to judgement they will confess, but then after that they going to straight to hell... I don't understand that because it says all tounges would be confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord, to Glory of the Father... My only question is also how could all tounges do this, unless they had help from the spirit, and have come to repentance, and change of mind willingly and not forcefully.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is this a true statement or a lie?
People have told me, this could not happen. Not everyone will come to repentance, the Lord can't get what He desires.

1 Timothy 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God,who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. Is this a true statement or a lie?

What in the world does this even mean!! Haha. Great scripture right here because it talks about God who is the Saviour of all people, and particularly for all believers.

Very interesting line, here.

1 Timothy 2: 1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men 2 for kings and all those in authority, so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all mento be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is this a true statement or a lie?

Trying to show a little bit more of the nature of God, the goodness that is in Him.


I'm insane aren't I?

God bless you all, in the Lord Jesus Christ name, amen.
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
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#88
This would apply more to the 'men' described in the Book of Jude rather than in the Gentiles who end up being their followers. It probably isn't an accident that a some information about fallen angels is included just before a much larger book is available in which angels are mentioned on almost every page.

1Pe:4:12-18:
Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice,
inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that,
when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ,
happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you:
on their part he is evil spoken of,
but on your part he is glorified.
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2Pe:2:17:
These are wells without water,
clouds that are carried with a tempest;
to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude:1:12:
These are spots in your feasts of charity,
when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear:
clouds they are without water,
carried about of winds;
trees whose fruit withereth,
without fruit,
twice dead,
plucked up by the roots;
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,313
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Tennessee
#89
This thread is over 5 years old and the OP is no longer a member.
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
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#91
I guess I don't have to worry about sandbagging it. Bit weird it show up on a simple googgle search isn't it??
Are the points all solved?

10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
The ones alive after the vials have been poured out and the ones resurrected according to the list in Re:20:4 are the first to enter the Kingdom of God. The two part process begins with a small groupthat will be trained during the 1,000 years to be Shepherds to the ones that come alive at the GWT event, aka 'the Flock'.

Even the baptism Jesus gave certain followesr made them able to complete a 40 days fast like He did it is not the same as the rewards that are due certain people once the iron/clay kingdom is defeated. It does not start untiolthje 5th trump sounds and then it runs for 42 months (1260 days)

11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
Hebrews:12 states that Jesus is the ones chastising people at an event known as the GWT event. The ones that werec with Him on earth go straight to their eternal home, New Jerusalem. Nothing more needs to be said really.

12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
The last few verses in Proverbs:8probaly sums things up best. His laws are the ones that sre inplace so He is the judge due to Him being the 'seed of Eve' from Ge:3:15.
After God sees the ones at Judgment as being clean He is the one who personally offers this groupadrinl of living water. It is the same water that is found in the river from Eze:47 and that is where the people drink from that are alive at the end of ths first day off ther 1,000 year reign. In the New Erath verses it is the river that flows in New Jerusalem as it also flows outside of the city as it make the land liveable for all the people that exit the city as they spraed out into all the corners of the new earth.

13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
It is through Christ than mankind seed the fulfillment of the two bruises that must happen before any person can be reunited to God. Jesus is one sincere prayer away. If you take Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 that is a good introduction to God and the beginning and end of nthis earth as it transists from being slightly less than perfect to being perfected.
The 2 bruises from Ge:3:15 is what the rest of the book is about. Moses was the start of the group that would end up giving birth to the 'seed of Eve' that took the bruise to the heel when He died on the cross. The other bruise is completed when He puts satan in chains in the Pit. Jesus pays arttention to the people and God takes care of the remaining fallen angels that are not in the fiery lake. The law from re:21 is the law that will apply in the new earth. the 1,000 year period is also under thart same law. The 10 Commandments replaced them as they covered the bruises determination only as that covere the whole time sin exists on His earth.

14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
GThe first to become that are the one3s who end up being alive on the day Jesus returns. They survive the wrath that sends fallen angels to the fiery lake because of that. The ones that God is referencing in re:21 is the last ones to be saved, they are resurrected after Satan is in the lake so none of them can be tempted to sin as that would see God sendingt them to the fiery lake. He has other plans for us, make the univer just like the garden in Eden.

15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
It means that group will be alive for the 1,000 year reign, because it does not mention the salvation that happens at the GWT event doesn't negate the verses that do. Paul didn't mention events from the time the Gospels cover becaus it is already cobered by 4 witnesses that were there in person. he testifies to things he experienced in person. The 1,000 year reign is a doctrine from Revelations, the resurrection verses before only refer to the GWT event.

16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
Saying others will not be saved is the only way to lose your own salvation status. 1Cor:5 tells believers to distance thenmselves from sinners so they do not suffer the same fate so it is probably allowed to say they are not saved at this moment. God allows Jesus to sent 2/3 ofr all living poeopleto the grave in just a few hours as part of the (many) signs that show that prophecy is being fulfilled.
Repented Gentiles are the ones being referenveed in the De:4:30 prophecy about pray for physical safety will bring results. The two witnesses are how that help would show up in a variety of ways.

17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
A name is entered in the book of Life is made at conception and it includes all flesh rathet tan just the flesh of men. Some are read out at the start of the 1,000 year reign as described in Re:10 and by God at the GWT event. Jesus and John were 'aware and alive' while still in the womb. The names of the other flesh willbe read out after Re:22 ends with tyhe river flowing out in the duist that was this earth. The reason there are only a few fish alive for the 1,000 years is only the sinless that know about good and evil are protected from mthe fire. Even in the new earth the other flesh does not know abouit good and evil. They willknow God on the same level that Adam did, they can talk to eacfhj other and they are eternal beings and will live forever as long as they have food to eat. Men will be immortal meaning they do not need anything in orfder to remain alive.

18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
The faith of a wife will cover the whole family no matter how much they sin. If you are a believer when you die you come alive at the start of the 1,000 years, if you are not then you are resurrected by god at the GWT event and you are sinless when you come out of the grave so they can be given a drink of water. 1,000 years in hell willleave howmany that are not thirsty? Zero.

19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
By the end of laying down the law in re:22 all will have seeen tha face of God and are still alive. That is as saved as it gets. The new eartyh era is to learn all there is to know about the kindgom they have just entered. The 'chosen' are 1 day ahead in that time.

20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
No, it was the completion of all things associated with the bruise to the heel from Ge:3:15. Sin exists untilthe 7 vials have been poured out on all sinners and they are killed in a way that they can never resurface.. Christ is standing tall when He bruises Satan'shead as He chains him upand throwshim into the Pit. Satan's followers are also eliminated foirever at that same time. As tall as completing the bruise portion of that verse mad Jesus He is even taller when He is standing with a sword in His hand and all His enemies are daed at His feet.

21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
Re:22 is when the last of mankind is given that title. The first ones were given that about 1,000 years earlier when God gave Jesus some names from the Book of Life to read out. They drink from the river in Eze:47.

22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
Totally wrong, what it eliminates is the Clergy being able to hjold a threat over the heads of the Congregation that if you don't submit to all their corrupt demands you will be going to hell when the book clearly show it would be the Clergy thaqt is in the most danger of going to hell.

23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
The only mission we are given is to take care of the poor Converting sinners is what the book does rather than the person who brought them the book.
The confusion in the Churches is caused by false doctrines such as the 70 week was not part of a single block of time that expired in total 3 1/2 years after the cross.

24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
God loses nothing as would be expected of the God of the living. False Christisans end up dying before the return and they remain asleep for the 1,000 year reign and any that are alive on the day of the return still end upin the grave but sleep is denied.
 
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MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
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#92
Did you ever find out where your Granny went to??

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 

LibrarianLeo

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
191
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#93
24 Reasons Why Hell Is Real
by David Shibley

Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven.
Typically, Olympic athletes focus on the best outcome knowing full well that not all will make it.
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
680
102
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faithlife.com
#94
I’m about to join the Olympics of reading the longest posts in the world.
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
1
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#95
It doesn't appear very likely you will even begin what you already see it as an impossible task. The trick is to do the replies one at a time if long posts are beyond your abilities. When I run across a post like that I post as soon as I have a question or a point I want to make. If the post is too much, like 5this one is for you I tend to not post anything on rather than admit I can;t understand what a few hundred words mean.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
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#96
Hell is for real, but unfortunately it is not a place of eternal torment and suffering as many churches and teachers have said; Rather hell is the grave. Case in point when it talks about the second death that is it there is no life for the unsaved afterwards. Sure there are apparent implications in Dan. 12:2 and Jn. 5:29 that the unsaved will have life again but it does not even remotely imply that. Then there of course is the parable / no parable of Lazarus and the rich man but a careful study of that will show that it has to be a parable. So those that hold fast to the idea of eternal torment in a place called hell or wrong.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#97
Greetings Carl11,

Then there of course is the parable / no parable of Lazarus and the rich man but a careful study of that will show that it has to be a parable. So those that hold fast to the idea of eternal torment in a place called hell or wrong.

It always amazes me when people claim that eternal punishment isn't eternal and then they get rid of the evidence of the rich man and Lazarus by reducing it to a parable, taking away its literal meaning and then say "show me the scriptural evidence."

First of all, the rich man and Lazarus (RMAL) is not a parable, but was a literal event that Jesus was/is conveying. Parables use symbolism to represent the literal, where the event of the RMAL uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the literal location of Hades, as well as referring to the rich man's father and five brothers. And second, if you read the RMAL at face value, it means what it says. A deeper study is not going to lead anyone to it being a parable. On the contrary, a deeper study of the RMAL will lead the reader to understand that both Lazarus and the rich man died, but there spirits departed and went down under the earth to Sheol/Hades, with one area being a place of comfort/paradise and the other a place of torment, which is where the rich man went and which was separated by a great chasm. The rich man, Abraham and Lazarus were all conscious and aware, where the rich man was on the other side of the chasm in torment in flame. That is what a deeper study tells us. So tell us, what do you with the following scripture:

”A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

In order to experience the smoke of their torment rising forever and having no rest day or night, the individual would have to exist, being conscious and aware.
 
Last edited:
Nov 19, 2016
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#98
Is there day and night in heaven that torment goes on day and night? o_O

Could the torment be on earth some how?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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#99
Is there day and night in heaven that torment goes on day and night? o_O

Could the torment be on earth some how?
"No rest day or night" is meant to infer no intermission or rest of said torment. The torment is not referring to anything that will take place on earth, but it states that "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever," which is referring to the lake of fire, and which is where everyone whose name that is not written in the book of life spend eternity.

However, before Hades and the lake of fire, there will also be torment on earth during the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
 
Nov 19, 2016
258
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"No rest day or night" is meant to infer no intermission or rest of said torment. The torment is not referring to anything that will take place on earth, but it states that "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever," which is referring to the lake of fire, and which is where everyone whose name that is not written in the book of life spend eternity.

However, before Hades and the lake of fire, there will also be torment on earth during the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Okay, thanks for your response.

Torment on earth, day and night makes more sense to me, coming from my own view that I come from.

Like, could possibly an unbeliever, be restless day and night couldn't they? Thinking about it spiritually.

Doesn't the bible talk about unbelievers who where unable to enter God's rest because of their unbelief?