50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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VCO

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Thats what we are called for the most part. The real answer is I just believe in YHWH and the real Messiah Jesus.

Do you Believe that JESUS has YHWH in IN HIM, even though YHWH eternally is Omnipresent?

HE exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and all three are coequally YHWH?
 

peldom10

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The great tribulation IS the great persecution ... God's wrath is upon the persecutors.


All this is the wrath of God not tribulation, you have to distinguish the two.
With respect...the KJV Bible refers to tribulation.
Within that...God applies His wrath.

Why do you wish to combine the two? Remember Revelation 22; 18,19...et al.
 

VCO

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Luke 21:36 (YLT)
36 watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'


For you Doubters out there, Now there is the Rapture in a Single Verse. ESCAPE all the things Prophesied in the WRATH OF GOD.


1620099448579.jpeg
 

Evmur

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With respect...the KJV Bible refers to tribulation.
Within that...God applies His wrath.

Why do you wish to combine the two? Remember Revelation 22; 18,19...et al.
We are saved from the wrath of God, that is what the Rapture is all about. But we are warned to expect tribulation.

Incidentally the Jews will all come home to Israel for the same purpose that the church is raptured. to separate them from the nations and to save them from the wrath of God. The wrath of God is upon the nations which came up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem.

Tribulation is pre rap, wrath is post rap.
 

Evmur

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It is jacobs trouble.
Time of the gentiles fulfilled.

Only the 144k JEWS ARE SEALED.

And those sealed jews are already born again messianic believers.

So don't say christians are already sealed.
If that were true then the 144k believers were sealed for no reason.

That alone debunks a mid trib (that prewrath deal) model.
It doesn't at all, yes the 144k or the whole house of Israel ... the church is gone. God's kingdom on earth is set up and Christ begins His 1, 000 year reign through the Jews.

Folks zero in upon the bowls of wrath upon the unrepentant and overlook that the reign is Righteousness, Peace and prosperity. It will be rolled out across the earth pushing the the wicked back ever back to the 4 corners of the earth.
 

Evmur

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Ah! So you are a prewrather! Yes, we most certainly disagree. Prewrath theory causes a complete rearranging of Revelation to fit, so is automatically proven wrong. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong.

Where you have missed it: you don't know where "great tribulation" (the days Jesus talked about) are found in Revelation. You don't know where the 70th week starts. You have to move the 6th seal to chapter 19. The list goes on and on. "prewrath" theory is the worst of the worst, Started by Van Kampen and Rosenthal because they did not distinguish between the cosmic signs that come before the week and the signs "after the tribulation of those days." These are two different signs that come over 7 years apart, and are signs for different things.

That great multitude is BEFORE any part of the 70th week. They could NOT have come from the days of GT Jesus spoke of. If you know anything about Revelation, the days of GT Jesus spoke of will be caused by the wrath of Satan working through the Beast and False prophet - and they don't even rise to power until chapter 13. They don't get the mark and image created until late in chapter 14.

You have often said we have to distinguish between wrath and tribulation. The truth is, we have to distinguish between "great tribulation" (GT) before the week, speaking of the daily tribulation over the long church age, and then the days of GT Jesus spoke of that would be worse than any other time in history.
No

Revelation must fit in with the plain and open scriptures. You can't get 2 christians to agree upon how the Revelation is to be interpreted. And if you form your eschatology from the open scriptures the Revelation does fit in.

It is during the 70th week that we see Antichrist come to his end just as Paul describes in Thessalonians ... after his reign of terror aka the great tribulation.
 

Evmur

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You still don't have it according to the written text. The Day of His wrath starts first, then the 70th week, causing the ENTIRE WEEK to be the wrath of God. That means every trumpet judgment and every bowl judgment will come with the wrath of God.

During the last half of the week, Satan's wrath (causing the days of GT) is added to the mix.

Oh, people CALL the 70th week, "the tribulation." It is only a title. But certainly tribulation or great pressure will be put on people during the entire week, but much more in the last half.

YOu don't think the wrath of God is going to cause great pressure upon people? How about nothing fit to drink except in stores where you can't buy without the mark?
God is sworn not to pour out His wrath upon people indiscriminately, He is sworn not to pour His wrath upon His people, it simply cannot happen. That is why we see the rainbow in the sky.

This is why the church is removed and and the Jews are gathered to their own land.
 

Evmur

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Right! It is not the church that is sealed in Revelation! Everyone should know that.

There is the everyday "tribulation" of the church age, and since the church age has been ongoing for 2000 years, God called it "mega" (GR) or great tribulation that the great crowd came out of before any part of the 70th week.

Then there will be the "tribulation" that people call "the 70th week. Just a title: "the tribulation."

God's wrath will be poured out all during the 70th week: the trumpet and vial judgments.

Satan's wrath will come as soon as he is cast down. The days of GT Jesus spoke of will come from Satan's wrath felt through the forced worship of the image and mark. God will cause the vials of His wrath to be poured out to shorten those days of GT. After the first 5 vials, the world will be hiding in the dark, in great pain, and no one will be intent on murdering anyone else. How long the darkness will last is anyone's guess - I guess at least until Jesus comes to Armageddon.
God's wrath begins in the temple when the returning Lord slays Antichrist and the armies which come up with him to Jerusalem. The church is removed.
 

Evmur

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You keep saying this: please, tell us the difference in your mind: define each and what it will cause.
In the world you will have tribulation, tribulation comes from man. The great tribulation begins with the reign of Antichrist. He will oppose everything god so- called ... that my friend spells tribulation for the church.
 

Absolutely

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<<<YOU do not know when God started the final week of years (49) before or during the time of Christ with the end result the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.>>>

Okay.....this is where your your error lies.
-a week of years is seven years
-nothing in Scripture indicates the 70th week started before or during the life of Christ
Historicist view needs its own thread.
Way too tedious to think the ac, flying scorpions, hailstones of fire, the mark, etc somehow came and went in about a tenth of their FUTURE power and description.

None of that has happened.

Like cooking forum posting in a corvette forum.

Totally waste of time.

They need their own thread.
 

Absolutely

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God's wrath begins in the temple when the returning Lord slays Antichrist and the armies which come up with him to Jerusalem. The church is removed.
The 144k are sealed early on in the trib.

No believers are there to be sealed.
So you now have the body of christ being tormented just like the heathen.( not sealed).

Pretrib rapture is harmonious.

Your "mid trib" model is not.

Btw the entire 7 years is tribulation ( trouble) no matter how you slice it.
The entire 7 years is wrath no matter how you slice it.
 

Absolutely

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Ephesians 5

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Quoting random verses as wheoponry.

Tedious.
 

Absolutely

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God's wrath begins in the temple when the returning Lord slays Antichrist and the armies which come up with him to Jerusalem. The church is removed.
the flying scorpions councel with Jesus prior to going out to torment.
They are indirectly sent by Jesus.

Heaven has used other nations against his rebellious people.

Trying to say " only wrath/ only trib" is helpful in "doctrine" but not exegesis.
 

VCO

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We are saved from the wrath of God, that is what the Rapture is all about. But we are warned to expect tribulation.

Incidentally the Jews will all come home to Israel for the same purpose that the church is raptured. to separate them from the nations and to save them from the wrath of God. The wrath of God is upon the nations which came up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem.

Tribulation is pre rap, wrath is post rap.

YES, this LIFE, has MANY tribulations in it. BUT, GOD's WRATH brings an INTENSE TRIBULATION, and that is what will ESCAPE from, to HEAVEN. I recenting READ an article on line by a Jewish Christian, an she said the Christian Church wants to argue, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib. But we do not divide up the end times that way. We know it is coming soon in Biblical Prophecy, and we leave it that way, as we all know it WILL HAPPEN. The Christian agrument is some what laughable, we do not divide up the end-times that way.

However, In Luke 21:36, he used the word ESCAPE, which to me, that means we are GOING to Heaven, for the WEDDING of the Lamb.
 

Absolutely

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My mistake on the earlier response as you are viewing translation from the inaccurate translations, which is difficult for me to see scripture in that rendering as it's false.

You are viewing the "final 7 weeks" as if this has not happened yet and it has. The 7 weeks you refer to occurred under Epiphanes IV in 167 BC, which is historical fact whether you realize/believe it or not.

The only reason you are confused about this is that you believe in theories based on incorrectly rendered scriptures. Verse 26 and 27 must be read in proper place in the rendering of which the KJV and all major publications DO NOT display as such.

I don't say that as an insult, as at one time I was just as ignorant in manuscript manipulation until after 15 years of rendering and the Lord granting me access to ancient docs to read and view unmolested which is kept secret from the populations.
You are basically saying God is not able to provide his church with a decent book.

But you and about 10 Other real christians are the elite undecieved holders ot the real truth and the real Jesus.
 

Absolutely

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YES, this LIFE, has MANY tribulations in it. BUT, GOD's WRATH brings an INTENSE TRIBULATION, and that is what will ESCAPE from, to HEAVEN. I recenting READ an article on line by a Jewish Christian, an she said the Christian Church wants to argue, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib. But we do not divide up the end times that way. We know it is coming soon in Biblical Prophecy, and we leave it that way, as we all know it WILL HAPPEN. The Christian agrument is some what laughable, we do not divide up the end-times that way.

However, In Luke 21:36, he used the word ESCAPE, which to me, that means we are GOING to Heaven, for the WEDDING of the Lamb.
See thats the thing.

End times is FRAMED in the bride / groom dimension.

It is spirit FIRST.

So why is almost no one framing end times in a Bride\groom dimension?
It is EXTREMELY RARE that anyone mentions it.
 
Apr 18, 2021
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You are basically saying God is not able to provide his church with a decent book.

But you and about 10 Other real christians are the elite undecieved holders ot the real truth and the real Jesus.
Why would you believe GOD LIES just to hold on to the worship of a book (John 5:39)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!

Why would you say otherwise (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD gave dominion to MAN ON THE EARTH (Genesis 1:26) Who calls men "evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) and WARNED them in Revelation 22:18-19

18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How can you believe the opposite of what GOD SAID yet think you are a Christian (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Why would you believe GOD LIES just to hold on to the worship of a book (John 5:39)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!

Why would you say otherwise (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD gave dominion to MAN ON THE EARTH (Genesis 1:26) Who calls men "evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) and WARNED them in Revelation 22:18-19

18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How can you believe the opposite of what GOD SAID yet think you are a Christian (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!
not sure who or what you are condemning
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
Why would you believe GOD LIES just to hold on to the worship of a book (John 5:39)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!

Why would you say otherwise (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD gave dominion to MAN ON THE EARTH (Genesis 1:26) Who calls men "evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) and WARNED them in Revelation 22:18-19

18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How can you believe the opposite of what GOD SAID yet think you are a Christian (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!
If i had to choose between being stuck in a elevator with Jesus or someone who thinks they, and they alone have every jot and comma correct....i choose Jesus every time.