50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Ahwatukee]

WRONG ! ! !

It as as GOOD as already DONE, the moment HE PLANNED IT, before TIME BEGAN.

You are getting your theology from the World's Point of View.

GET IT FROM THE BIBLE.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


There NEVER was a good part of HADIES, that is worldly thinking. How do I KNOW ? ? ?

Hello VCO,

There was indeed a part of Hades which was a place of comfort and is what Jesus was referring to when He told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

The scriptures regarding the rich man and Lazarus makes it very clear that the area that Abraham and Lazarus were in was a place of comfort, while the rich man was in a place of torment in flame, both areas being in Hades. And that between both areas, there was a great chasm ( a gaping opening, a chasm, gulf ) in place so that no one could cross over from either side.

"And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ "

The fact that the rich man was having a conversation with Abraham and that it was said that he as in Hades, would make Abraham and Lazarus as also being in Hades. The only way that one could interpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven, would mean that the rich man had a window into heaven from Hades, which the scripture does not support.

This belief that Abraham and Lazarus were having a conversation with the rich man from heaven, is pure conjecture, as you will not find anything in the context to support that idea. What the context does state is that, the rich man and Abraham could see each other and converse and that they were separated by a wide chasm, with one side being a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame.

 

[lamad]

WRONG ! ! !

It as as GOOD as already DONE, the moment HE PLANNED IT, before TIME BEGAN.

You are getting your theology from the World's Point of View.

GET IT FROM THE BIBLE.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


There NEVER was a good part of HADIES, that is worldly thinking. How do I KNOW ? ? ?


Mal. 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!


Abraham's Bosom, only mean's he was walking hand in hand with Abraham in HEAVEN.

View attachment 227502 . View attachment 227503

That is a sign of CLOSE FRIENDS, that is still Practiced today in the Mideast. A hundred years ago, we had an expression:
BOSOM BUDDIES. Just like ABRAHAM'S BOSOM, never meant a special place for saved spirits, until JESUS had a Chance to fulfill it. NEVER!
It was a done DEAL the Moment HE PLANNED IT.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


THAT IS CO-EQUALLY pertaining to O.T. Saints as it is with N.T. Saints, because of this VERSE:


Malachi 3:6 (GWT)
6 “I, the LORD, never change.
That is why you descendants of Jacob haven't been destroyed yet.

What you are saying is, all God had to do is PLAN to come to earth and be sacrificed - not really DO it.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

It seems you don't believe Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[lamad]

Now read the text.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

They were standing there before Jesus was supposedly on the cross.

Does not fit....at all.

Now lets see your theory;
Where is a search?

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
No search in that verse


3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
No search there either.
it says PROCLAIMING. IOW no search was needed.
I think you manufactored that entire deal.

Jesus was there all along.

I heard it straight from the Master. I think I will trust Him over you. sorry.

If you wish to call it a proclamation, it still goes that John wrote, "no man was FOUND."

It would seem, if no one was "found" then someone was "looking."

 

[lamad]

They were preached to.
Not only that but it says Jesus "took captivity captive"

They were visited
Preached to
Resurrected
Taken

Take it up with Jesus
I am just a reporter

I don't think all of Abraham's Bosom came to their grave site, the tomb open, their body resurrect, and then all show up in the throne room!
It only says Jesus TOOK them (supposedly to heaven.) That verse says nothing about resurrecting them.

And there were only 24 in the throne room.

the other verse about resurrection is in Mat 27 where it says "many" came out of their graves. Actually, Jesus took this up with me.

 

[lamad]

Under your model Jesus will not open the seals in the future.

I already showed you redeemed elders standing there before, as you say, "Jesus was not yet resurrected."
There is nothing supporting your model.
Very shaky to assume you are the only one on the planet with that "knowledge".

Or can you post a link?

I stand corrected if I said that. I learned something last night.
It is true, the first seals were opened when Jesus ascended as shown in Rev. 5 and 6.
In Rev. 4 the timing is just after Jesus rose from the dead but before He ascended (the Holy Spirit still there); He also raised the elders. Then in chapter 5 He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. The next thing He did was take the book and begin opening seals.
I am not the only one.

By the way, we are at the 5th seal: martyrs of the church age. The 6th seal starts the DAY.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@lamad , I disagree ^ .



Again, here's what I'd posted after you'd said that over in the other thread... for the readers to consider:



[Post #2556 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4551728 ]

The text just says, in 5:6, "a Lamb standing AS HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]" (you are well aware what "PERFECT tense" means). You are reading "His ascension" INTO this passage... (due to how *you* are reading the "was found" verse, v.4 and surrounding)


[5:4's "was found" means that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded, just like is used re: Paul in Acts 23-24 when he was brought before their human/earthly "bema" (judgment / court)... In THIS CONTEXT, the 24 elders are ALREADY shown wearing "stephanous/crowns"... something that Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (and "not to [him] ONLY")... and the ppl in "the things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3) had been told about "crown"... Here in the "FUTURE" aspects ("meta tauta") that John is "SHOWN," there are ppl up in Heaven *now* WEARING THEM! WHERE DID THEY GET THESE?!?! And THEY are SAYING "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..." (clearly "a CHANGE" has taken place!)]


Jesus ascended ALONE on Firstfruit (His resurrection day; Jn20:17 [1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12]), but took only "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's US / ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") there (that day) POSITIONALLY / LEGALLY (NO ONE ELSE!).



____________


[and Post #2560 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4551766 ]


Again, like I said in the last post (and Scripture itself tells us WHERE the "many" went that day ["into the holy city, and appeared unto many"], in contrast to WHERE Jesus HIMSELF was going ALONE, He ALONE ascended [Jn20:17 (1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12 "A SHEAF"! "AN HE LAMB"!)]... the ONLY ppl involved with THAT ascension He did that day was "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" positionally/legally (NOT literally / physically)!
Paul repeatedly informs us of this throughout his epistles.


['the many' (Matt27) were a sampling of OT saints, so to speak, and they illustrate what will take place *future* to "our Rapture / THE Departure" (IN THE AIR) of US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (the "ONE BODY")]

 

[VCO]

Hello VCO,

There was indeed a part of Hades which was a place of comfort and is what Jesus was referring to when He told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

The scriptures regarding the rich man and Lazarus makes it very clear that the area that Abraham and Lazarus were in was a place of comfort, while the rich man was in a place of torment in flame, both areas being in Hades. And that between both areas, there was a great chasm ( a gaping opening, a chasm, gulf ) in place so that no one could cross over from either side.

"And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ "

The fact that the rich man was having a conversation with Abraham and that it was said that he as in Hades, would make Abraham and Lazarus as also being in Hades. The only way that one could interpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven, would mean that the rich man had a window into heaven from Hades, which the scripture does not support.

This belief that Abraham and Lazarus were having a conversation with the rich man from heaven, is pure conjecture, as you will not find anything in the context to support that idea. What the context does state is that, the rich man and Abraham could see each other and converse and that they were separated by a wide chasm, with one side being a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame.

GOOD to here from you again, even though I totally disagree with what you just said.

Show me verses that SAY the good part of HADES is some where below HEAVEN.

The Great Gulf FIXED is between HEAVEN and the BAD Hades, which is a place of torment for the disembodies spirits of those that were NOT SAVED.

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV)
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

I only see the GREAT GULF or great chasm, fixed between where the DEAD in CHRIST are in HEAVEN and the Dead Unbelieves are Hadies, a place of torment between for unbelievers, and EARTH.

The HUMAN SPIRIT no matter were you GO, does not get to come back to EARTH, once you have have Crossed over to the OTHER SIDE of Death, NO MATTER where you GO. It takes an act of GOD to get one to return from the dead. LIKE: LAZARUS COME FORTH!

 

[VCO]

GOOD to here from you again, even though I totally disagree with what you just said.

Show me verses that SAY the good part of HADES is some where below HEAVEN.

The Great Gulf FIXED is between HEAVEN and the BAD Hades, which is a place of torment for the disembodies spirits of those that were NOT SAVED.

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV)
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

I only see the GREAT GULF or great chasm, fixed between where the DEAD in CHRIST are in HEAVEN and the Dead Unbelieves are Hadies, a place of torment between for unbelievers, and EARTH.

The HUMAN SPIRIT no matter were you GO, does not get to come back to EARTH, once you have have Crossed over to the OTHER SIDE of Death, NO MATTER where you GO. It takes an act of GOD to get one to return from the dead. LIKE: LAZARUS COME FORTH!

Yes, I understood that from the Scriptures, that in the bad part of HADES you can see what you are missing out on as a result of your CHOICES, as part or your TORMENT, in HADES. Could BE VISIONS, than a WINDOW.

 

[Ahwatukee]

GOOD to here from you again, even though I totally disagree with what you just said.

Show me verses that SAY the good part of HADES is some where below HEAVEN.

The Great Gulf FIXED is between HEAVEN and the BAD Hades, which is a place of torment for the disembodies spirits of those that were NOT SAVED.

Hello again!

Well, it is very simple to deduce from the following:

"23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. "

So, the spirit of the rich man departed his body and went down into Hades as the verse above states. Therefore, since
the rich man could see Abraham and was speaking with him, then it would demonstrate that both Abraham and the rich man were in the same area. Then there is the following:

" And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

This demonstrates that there is a great chasm fixed in between the place of comfort where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, with the area of torment in flame which is where the rich man was and still is. Think of it as one big area divided by a wide trench.

Luke 16:19-31 (ESV)

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

I only see the GREAT GULF or great chasm, fixed between where the DEAD in CHRIST are in HEAVEN and the Dead Unbelieves are Hadies, a place of torment between for unbelievers, and EARTH.

See, this is the error in that, you and others interject heaven into the context where there is no mention of it. The chasm is like a ravine separating the two areas. The place of comfort/paradise was on the side where Abraham and Lazarus were. The place of comfort is the opposite side of where the rich man was.

The HUMAN SPIRIT no matter were you GO, does not get to come back to EARTH, once you have have Crossed over to the OTHER SIDE of Death, NO MATTER where you GO. It takes an act of GOD to get one to return from the dead. LIKE: LAZARUS COME FORTH!

The wicked do not go into heaven at the time of death, but just as the rich man, their spirits go down into Sheol/Hades where they will be in torment until the great white throne judgment, where at which time they will be resurrected, with their spirits being released from Hades, which is revealed in Rev.20:11-15. Here is the definition of Sheol/Hades:

===================================================

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the spirits of the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

=======================================================

Since Abraham was speaking with the rich man, it would put them in the same place, but with a great trench separating the two areas.

The spirits of the OT saints are no longer there, but are in the presence of the Lord, waiting for the resurrection from heavenside, including all who have died in Christ.

The wicked continue to fill up Sheol/Hades 24/7 where they are in torment in flame until the judgment, where at which time they will be cast into the final place of judgment which is the lake of fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hello VCO,

There was indeed a part of Hades which was a place of comfort and is what Jesus was referring to when He told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

The scriptures regarding the rich man and Lazarus makes it very clear that the area that Abraham and Lazarus were in was a place of comfort, while the rich man was in a place of torment in flame, both areas being in Hades. And that between both areas, there was a great chasm ( a gaping opening, a chasm, gulf ) in place so that no one could cross over from either side.

"And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ "

The fact that the rich man was having a conversation with Abraham and that it was said that he as in Hades, would make Abraham and Lazarus as also being in Hades. The only way that one could interpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven, would mean that the rich man had a window into heaven from Hades, which the scripture does not support.

This belief that Abraham and Lazarus were having a conversation with the rich man from heaven, is pure conjecture, as you will not find anything in the context to support that idea. What the context does state is that, the rich man and Abraham could see each other and converse and that they were separated by a wide chasm, with one side being a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame.

Scripture clearly teaches, when a believer physically dies they are immediately present with the Lord, apparently Abraham's Bosom is in the presence of the Lord

2 Corinthians 5:6-8KJV
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[lamad]

@lamad , I disagree ^ .



Again, here's what I'd posted after you'd said that over in the other thread... for the readers to consider:



[Post #2556 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4551728 ]

The text just says, in 5:6, "a Lamb standing AS HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]" (you are well aware what "PERFECT tense" means). You are reading "His ascension" INTO this passage... (due to how *you* are reading the "was found" verse, v.4 and surrounding)


[5:4's "was found" means that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded, just like is used re: Paul in Acts 23-24 when he was brought before their human/earthly "bema" (judgment / court)... In THIS CONTEXT, the 24 elders are ALREADY shown wearing "stephanous/crowns"... something that Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (and "not to [him] ONLY")... and the ppl in "the things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3) had been told about "crown"... Here in the "FUTURE" aspects ("meta tauta") that John is "SHOWN," there are ppl up in Heaven *now* WEARING THEM! WHERE DID THEY GET THESE?!?! And THEY are SAYING "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..." (clearly "a CHANGE" has taken place!)]


Jesus ascended ALONE on Firstfruit (His resurrection day; Jn20:17 [1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12]), but took only "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's US / ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") there (that day) POSITIONALLY / LEGALLY (NO ONE ELSE!).



____________


[and Post #2560 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4551766 ]


Again, like I said in the last post (and Scripture itself tells us WHERE the "many" went that day ["into the holy city, and appeared unto many"], in contrast to WHERE Jesus HIMSELF was going ALONE, He ALONE ascended [Jn20:17 (1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12 "A SHEAF"! "AN HE LAMB"!)]... the ONLY ppl involved with THAT ascension He did that day was "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" positionally/legally (NOT literally / physically)!
Paul repeatedly informs us of this throughout his epistles.


['the many' (Matt27) were a sampling of OT saints, so to speak, and they illustrate what will take place *future* to "our Rapture / THE Departure" (IN THE AIR) of US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (the "ONE BODY")]

[5:4's "was found" means that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. It is why John was weeping. That search ended in failure. The Big question - the VERY question Jesus asked me is WHY was He not found in that search?

something that Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY"

That does not mean God could not do something different for these elders.

It turns out this is not an easy passage. They are seen before Jesus ascended and after He ascended.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I am not reading into that passage His ascension because it also says He sent the Holy Spirit down. Doesn't that nail it down? He was not seen in heaven in chapter 4, and from chapter 5 we learn why: he was still on earth "prevailing." I say prevailing over death. Then in the next scene, He suddenly appears in the throne room and the Holy Spirit is immediately sent down. I did not read an ascension into the passage. John wrote it in!
It does not say "He sent," only "sent." But since these sentence follow His sudden appearance, it is just as if God wants us to see His ascension and then the Spirit sent down.

Thinking back on the days Jesus taught me this passage, several months of time, maybe 4 of 5 hours a day because I was working then, for the longest time I could not see "timing," nor could I see the "movement of time." I could then not answer His three questions. It was because I was thinking "future" (like most here) when God and John was thinking History. TDW, are you now thinking "history?" After all, history was when the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Please keep in mind, these two chapters are presented to us as they were to John, EXACTLY in every point the way God wanted. I am convinced, "every jot and tittle" as the scriptures say. God leaves it up to us - with the Holy Spirit's help, to see what God wants us to see. I am convinced that John wanted to introduce John to the book, here, just the way He introduced John to the Dragon in chapter 12, and the Beasts in chapter 13.

God chose to start the vision of the book while the book was still in the hand of the Father. If that was before the ascension - and I believe it was - Then somehow God has to show a throne room of the past. I think that is what He did. There are certainly parts I do not understand. However, I certainly understand "not seen," the Holy Spirit there, and a search where no man was found.

I agree; the many were only a sampling of the OT saints.

 

[lamad]

Hello again!

Well, it is very simple to deduce from the following:

"23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. "

So, the spirit of the rich man departed his body and went down into Hades as the verse above states. Therefore, since
the rich man could see Abraham and was speaking with him, then it would demonstrate that both Abraham and the rich man were in the same area. Then there is the following:

" And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

This demonstrates that there is a great chasm fixed in between the place of comfort where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, with the area of torment in flame which is where the rich man was and still is. Think of it as one big area divided by a wide trench.



See, this is the error in that, you and others interject heaven into the context where there is no mention of it. The chasm is like a ravine separating the two areas. The place of comfort/paradise was on the side where Abraham and Lazarus were. The place of comfort is the opposite side of where the rich man was.



The wicked do not go into heaven at the time of death, but just as the rich man, their spirits go down into Sheol/Hades where they will be in torment until the great white throne judgment, where at which time they will be resurrected, with their spirits being released from Hades, which is revealed in Rev.20:11-15. Here is the definition of Sheol/Hades:

===================================================

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the spirits of the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

=======================================================

Since Abraham was speaking with the rich man, it would put them in the same place, but with a great trench separating the two areas.

The spirits of the OT saints are no longer there, but are in the presence of the Lord, waiting for the resurrection from heavenside, including all who have died in Christ.

The wicked continue to fill up Sheol/Hades 24/7 where they are in torment in flame until the judgment, where at which time they will be cast into the final place of judgment which is the lake of fire.

All through the OT the dead had to go DOWN. That was Satan's doing when he usurped Adams lease.

 

[Evmur]

That was a nice sidestep but not a direct answer to the question. I will ask again:

If Jesus came tonight for His bride (your theories will not change HIM) WILL YOU BE EXPECTING HIM? Will you be looking for Him?

We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.

 

[Evmur]

....with half those virgins left behind.
Not hals words Jesus words.

Forget those dead men you think you are debunking.
The bible

Nobody is resurrected after the gt but those at the gwt judgement.

The rapture is clearly pretrib.
Postribbers have the gathering of rev 14 ahead of the dead in christ.

Backwards from what 1 thes 4 declares.
Backwards.

Yes those virgins are shut out from the wedding feast ... but they are not the church as Lindsay claims.

 

[Evmur]

....with half those virgins left behind.
Not hals words Jesus words.

Forget those dead men you think you are debunking.
The bible

Nobody is resurrected after the gt but those at the gwt judgement.

The rapture is clearly pretrib.
Postribbers have the gathering of rev 14 ahead of the dead in christ.

Backwards from what 1 thes 4 declares.
Backwards.

I'm not sure if you believe in the 1, 000 year reign, I thought you did. The gwt comes at the end of the mill ... long, long after the church has be raptured. God brings us with Him.

 

[Truth7t7]

We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.

Yes there are signs of the "Apostasy", and women taking the pulpits, while men sit in the pew is just one example of this

 

[Truth7t7]

The gwt comes at the end of the mill ... long, long after the church has be raptured. God brings us with Him.

Your Claim Is "False"

The Great White Throne Judgement In Revelation 20:11-15 Takes Place At The Lords Appearance In The Second Coming

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Evmur]

The Remnant, chosen elect Jew will repent, be sealed by God the Holy Spirit, and added to the Church, just as all believers have

Your teaching a seal for the Church, and a different seal for the Jew is a false Zionist teaching, (Dual Covenant Theology)

The remnant according to Paul was the apostolic church ... the purpose of the remnant as in Elijah's day is to bring the whole nation back to repentance and to save Israel.

 

[Evmur]

Yes there are signs of the "Apostasy", and women taking the pulpits, while men sit in the pew is just one example of this

... we need to get out of those pews more ... your church has a false system for choosing it's leaders as well so you can't have the kettle calling the pot black ... can you ...

 

[Evmur]

Your Claim Is "False"

The Great White Throne Judgement In Revelation 20:11-15 Takes Place At The Lords Appearance In The Second Coming

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

..... and His Kingdom, that's what Paul said "God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge the quick and the dead."

YOU say He will not bring His Kingdom, YOU say there will be no Kingdom to bring. IF

IF He brings His Kingdom with Him when He comes to judge the quick and the dead where have they been those 1, 000 years?