50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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FreeGrace2

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Erm, not at all..Daniel does though clarify it. The Saints defeat the AC (little horn)
But who actually throws the beast #1 into the fiery lake? Saints, or Christ?

Daniel 7 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
v.26 speaks of the saints taking away the beast's dominion, and consumes and destroys IT. Doesn't say they kill the beast or throw him into a fiery lake.
 

randyk

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Well I am glad you have clarified that.

I think it makes it clear that your idea is errant (untenable) in the context of the Church at Thessalonika,
since Paul had already spent time there teaching them, and specifically he has already explained to them the
substantive details of Jesus' 2nd Coming. They are not vulnerable little ingenues.
You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve! ;) Paul had taught the Thessalonians about Christ's coming, and there remained a need for more teaching, since some had misrepresented Christ's coming. Simple. Where's your wisdom, Old Sage? ;)

Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.

1 Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They fully understood that the 2nd coming entailed the Church being taken up to the Lord, so why would
they be thinking that a 'cult' as you put it, clearly claiming to be the incarnation of God's Kingdom on earth,
meant that the 2nd coming had occurred?
See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"

You are making no sense here. Nowhere in Paul's letter does he refer to
this supposed group, nowhere do we get the sense that the Church in Thessalonika is going through the paroxysms of
a crisis of unimaginable proportions - which is what your scenario suggests.
Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.

You are suggesting that a fringe group
somewhere is claiming that the 2nd coming has already happened, and that, totally contrary to what Paul has already taught,
the believers have remained on earth, and now as a consequence, the Thessalonikan Church is in a state of existential
faith crisis, because for some reason they are seduced by this hoax. But that flies in the face of what Paul says:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.

But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.

Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.

I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*

So your thesis is dead Randy. (It happens.)
It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented. ;) It happens....

I've told you what Paul means in 2 Thessalonians. I am not going to repeat it. It is not that complex.
You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore! ;)
 

randyk

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I dont need those dead men. Any of them.

I do not line up exactly with most pretribbers.

Awatukee and i dissagree on certain items.
The same with dw. And others.

...but we do agree on 99% of verses.

Why is that?
Because we are hound dogs and not onto cookie cutter teachers.

You basically lie and slander about that darby mess.
It is not true.

Yet even when told you keep framing it into a bizarre false narrative.

Every time you do it, it comes across to me as if someone very ignorantly says " that bible is satanic" ....why? " because i have seen satanists use it at every one of their meeting"

Bizarre.

Flat out bizarre.

Deception
Actually, you are the one doing the slandering. And if you agree on 99% of the verses with your fellow Pretribbers, then you're basically "cookie cutter" Christians. You follow one another mindlessly.

I don't actually believe that, because I think better of you than that. But it is evidence that you're following a playbook, even if you don't recognize where it started and how it's been passed down to you.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve! ;) Paul had taught the Thessalonians about Christ's coming, and there remained a need for more teaching, since some had misrepresented Christ's coming. Simple. Where's your wisdom, Old Sage? ;)

Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.



See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"



Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.



The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.

But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.

Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.

I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*



It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented. ;) It happens....



You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore! ;)
Well I agree on the power of cults, the power of the group, etc.
You are welcome to share those experiences, I find cults interesting.

But I don't see Paul praising the Thessalonikans if they are on CultWatch....just my 2 cents
 
Oct 23, 2020
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But who actually throws the beast #1 into the fiery lake? Saints, or Christ?


v.26 speaks of the saints taking away the beast's dominion, and consumes and destroys IT. Doesn't say they kill the beast or throw him into a fiery lake.
But who actually throws the beast #1 into the fiery lake? Saints, or Christ?


v.26 speaks of the saints taking away the beast's dominion, and consumes and destroys IT. Doesn't say they kill the beast or throw him into a fiery lake.
Maybe because the beast and the antichrist are not the same
 
Oct 23, 2020
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You're naïve if you think Christians can't be naïve! ;) Paul had taught the Thessalonians about Christ's coming, and there remained a need for more teaching, since some had misrepresented Christ's coming. Simple. Where's your wisdom, Old Sage? ;)

Jesus himself warned his Disciples that this kind of deception would follow his ministry. Was Jesus naive even after he had taught his Disciples, failing to explore every element of that deception? No, he equipped Paul, through the Holy Spirit, to deal with it when it came.



See above. Not everything is covered in the 1st go around. Sometimes we have to deal with things as they come up. Then we can look back and realize we'd been warned. Sometimes we need help with that warning! It seems you still don't get the reason for the warning about "False Christs?"



Aren't you being a little over dramatic here? I never called this a crisis of great proportion! It was simply a problem the Church needed to deal with, such as we need to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses today. Nobody is having a heart attack over their existence. They simply need to be exposed as imposters.



The fact we have confidence in having eternal life does not free us from problems in the present life. We have obligations to be on the alert. So said Jesus, right? Just because we're saved doesn't mean that Christians don't make bonehead mistakes, such as I made when I got into a Christian cult in S. CA many years ago. I had to extract myself, and went through some mind-bending changes. Deception is indeed a heavy mental thing--it is a spiritual bondage.

But as I said, I don't necessarily see the application of Jesus' Coming in this cult the same way it *should* be seen. They may have viewed the very existence of their cult as evidence that they were, in some strange sense, Jesus' Coming.

Is this really so unbelievable? We have had groups all through history claiming to be in some sense the coming of the Kingdom, or predictors of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. Even today we have religious cults that claim to be God's Kingdom either already here on earth or coming to be on earth through them.

I suppose I just have more experience with the cults than you do? I've seen them up close, and have actually been *in them.*



It seems my demise has been grossly misrepresented. ;) It happens....



You're entitled to your opinion. I hope you've convinced yourself my view is "dead?" Then you won't have to respond to it anymore! ;)
Paul is really talking specifically about the Second Coming, whereas Jesus was warning his Jewish disciples about various
subversive attempts within Judea to destroy the Church, through false Messianic movements, and then during the Roman War,
just desperate movements to deal with the destruction of the state.

Paul makes a very specific statement and I think you do it a slight disservice to bung it in the CultWatch bin...
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Since we are already in the GT period, 'pre-trib' (anything) is [literally] not possible - it is already past...

Then you do not understand totally what GOD calls the GREAT TRIBULATION. It will be a hundred times worse than THIS TIME.
 

soberxp

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GREAT TRIBULATION
meaning The pain of having babys.
there is a women in Rev.

and we "fight" eachother with all kinds of understanding of bible in the womb of the women.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ ...and the text says that by that MID-trib point (per the chpt 12 context), "13 ... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]."; ...so the birth (and 'caught up' part) is "past" by that point...

[... I don't believe this is speaking of Jesus' birth, either... just like Micah 5:3 is not (though Micah 5:2 IS...)]
 

soberxp

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^ ...and the text says that by that MID-trib point (per the chpt 12 context), "13 ... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]"... so the birth is "past" by that point...

[... I don't believe this is speaking of Jesus' birth, either... just like Micah 5:3 is not (though Micah 5:2 IS)]
First there was Adam of the flesh, then there was Adam of the spirit.
and if the male is Jesus, we are The body of Christ, Jesus is The head of the church.
This is not contradictory at all.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [i.e. identifying the 'she'] hath brought forth: then the REMNANT OF his brethren shall return unto the the children of Israel." (same "remnant" spoken of in Rev12:17--Note to readers: this "remnant" is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being spoken of, in either Micah 5:3 here, or in Rev12:17;) )
 

soberxp

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"3 Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [i.e. identifying the 'she'] hath brought forth: then the REMNANT OF his brethren shall return unto the the children of Israel." (same "remnant" spoken of in Rev12:17--Note to readers: this "remnant" is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being spoken of, in either Micah 5:3 here, or in Rev12:17;) )
her seed meaning many children,which keep the command of God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ "13 [he persecuted]... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren]," (brought forth) PRIOR TO that MID-trib point (per Rev12), when THEREAFTER v.17 pertains to the REMNANT OF her seed (located on the earth, just as "the woman" is--same as in Micah 5:3b), see... (not to the "arsena / arren" / male [SINGULAR] she HAD BROUGHT FORTH who had been "caught up" [and that's not speaking of JESUS])
 

soberxp

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^ "13 [he persecuted]... the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren]" (brought forth) PRIOR TO that MID-trib point (per Rev12), when THEREAFTER v.17 pertains to the REMNANT OF her seed, see... (not to the "arsena / arren" / male [SINGULAR] she HAD BROUGHT FORTH who had been "caught up" [and that's not speaking of JESUS])
then who The male is, you?
 

randyk

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Paul is really talking specifically about the Second Coming, whereas Jesus was warning his Jewish disciples about various
subversive attempts within Judea to destroy the Church, through false Messianic movements, and then during the Roman War,
just desperate movements to deal with the destruction of the state.

Paul makes a very specific statement and I think you do it a slight disservice to bung it in the CultWatch bin...
Thanks for your opinion, but it's what I think. Take care...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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@soberxp , to your question... Since "the woman" (Rev12 and Micah5:3) is a corporate being, I see no problem with "13... [the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [arsena / arren - G730]"--the male [singular]"--also as a corporate being (i.e. "a body made up of many members"--see 1Cor12:12, for example)
 

soberxp

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@soberxp , to your question... Since "the woman" (Rev12 and Micah5:3) is a corporate being, I see no problem with "13... [the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [arsena / arren - G730]"--the male [singular]"--also as a corporate being (i.e. "a body made up of many members"--see 1Cor12:12, for example)
I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining it.

Jesus is the male, and we are The body of Jesus Christ,so he is the male, and we are The seed of her.

Do you agree?
 

randyk

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Well I agree on the power of cults, the power of the group, etc.
You are welcome to share those experiences, I find cults interesting.

But I don't see Paul praising the Thessalonikans if they are on CultWatch....just my 2 cents
I spent about 3 years listening to weekly "The Bible Answerman" programs from Walter Martin when I lived in S. CA. It gave me an amazingly good insight into the cults, right after I had extracted myself from the Local Church.

The Local Church is not its actual name--Witness Lee, a Chinese gentleman, who escaped Communism in China, founded a denomination that he actually denied was a denomination. He in fact disowned any name for his denomination whatsoever, calling his following the "church in Anaheim," the "church in Las Vegas, " the "church in New York," etc. He thought the church should not have a name and should be one in each city, excluding all denominations.

I got into the group because I had been a student of Watchman Nee, and knew that Witness Lee had been his associate in China. What I didn't know is that Lee had changed from Nee, and had indeed started a new cult!

Walter Martin's organization, Christian Research Institute, sponsored a pamphlet by the Passantinos, who exposed it as a cult. I read it and responded, angrily, by letter to Dr. Walter Martin in 10 pages! Then I proceeded to move from the Pacific NW, due to it raining on my motorcycle relentlessly, and find a home in S. California, close to where Lee ministered and where Stream Ministries was located. Stream was the publishing outfit that published books by both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

I chose to live in Anaheim because that's where this "Local Church" was based. But I after a few months became convinced myself that it was indeed a cult. They thought of themselves as superior. Martin's group pointed out that they were modalistic in their theology. Another group, Spiritual Counterfeits Project, out of Berkeley, claimed they were "non-Christian," for which SCP was successfully sued.

So yes, they are Christian, but yes, they are also a cult. To my disappointment, a few years back I heard from Gretchen Passantino, the one who had written that tract against Lee's group for CRI. She and the successor to the Bible Answerman, Hank Hanegraaff had decided the "Local Church" was no longer a cult!

We were emailing about this when she stopped writing. I later saw in the news Gretchen died! So I never got the whole scoop. But I'm absolutely convinced that even though the cult has stopped being modalistic in their theology, they are still a cult! They are still eccentric and elitist. They have a strange spirit, coupled together with any possible genuine spirituality.

This is just a human interest story, but it shows I have a personal interest in cultic thinking. And I empathize with Paul in his concern to deal with a cultic group *within Christianity* that was making a pretty outlandish claim.

But then again, take a look at what Democrats ran on in the last election and won!! Open the borders to the contagious, the terrorists, the gangs. Spend money in the trillions to make future generations laden with debt. Kill our energy industries, except the ones that don't work long term so we are slaves to the Middle East and to Russia.

Outlandish statements can always be rationalized away! See Biden.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining it.

Jesus is the male, and we are The body of Jesus Christ,so he is the male, and we are The seed of her.

Do you agree?
I disagree only if [SINCE] you're referring to "the remnant / rest [plural] of her seed" in v.17 which will still be on the earth (as "the woman" herself will also still be located) after she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [arsena / arren - SINGULAR (tho a 'corporate' body as I see it)]]" at some point PRIOR TO this MID-trib context (Rev12), which "male [SINGULAR--G730]" had also already been "caught up" PRIOR TO this point in the chronology... (i.e. at some point PRIOR TO mid-trib)...

IOW, "the male [singular]" will NOT be located on the earth, as "the woman" and "the remnant /rest [plural] of her seed" ARE shown to be located, see. (Micah 5:3's "remnant / rest of" = Rev12:17's "remnant / rest [plural] of her seed"--not speaking of the ONE having PREVIOUSLY been birthed and "caught UP" [no longer located on the earth], by this point in the chronology, see...)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" - 1Cor12:12 [the "ONE BODY"--"the BODY OF CHRIST"--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]



[Rev12:17 has "the remnant / rest" as "PLURAL"... however, WE are the "corporate" "ONE BODY"... NOT "the remnant / rest [plural] of..." (v.17) in this Rev12 CONTEXT, see]