50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Oct 23, 2020
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No, the transfiguration occurs IN OR WITH THE CLOUDS.


When Jesus "gathers up" the living believers, that won't be an issue. Are you suggesting that Jesus can't gather up believers in their human bodies in the clouds?

The time of the "twinkling of the eye" and our "being changed" per 1 Cor 15:52 isn't given. So it could be just before the believer's feet leave ground. Or it may be when they meet Jesus in the air (clouds).
Well what if you have vertigo? That is going to be a horrific event
 
Oct 23, 2020
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No, the transfiguration occurs IN OR WITH THE CLOUDS.


When Jesus "gathers up" the living believers, that won't be an issue. Are you suggesting that Jesus can't gather up believers in their human bodies in the clouds?

The time of the "twinkling of the eye" and our "being changed" per 1 Cor 15:52 isn't given. So it could be just before the believer's feet leave ground. Or it may be when they meet Jesus in the air (clouds).

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Mark 14:
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Not really sure what you've got against heavenly clouds....
 

AandW

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Jun 9, 2021
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Cracks me up how Paul was simply asked, when our loved ones die, will we ever see them again(?), and when he answered about being Caught Up, it has turned into the biggest false Doctrine ever taught to the followers of Almighty God. It's literally mind boggling how gullible some truthfully are.
 

FreeGrace2

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I see the uprooting horn as the AC -
but what do you think, you probably know a lot more than me?
Probably not. I've never heard of the "uprooting horn", which is why I was asking. There are details in Revelation that the Holy Spirit didn't provide. So don't sweat those things.

I'm sure things will make much more sense once "all hell breaks loose". Anyway, I was raised pretrib and like so many others, just accepted what I was taught. It wasn't until a good friend challenged my view on the rapture that I really began to study it in detail and find the truth.
 

FreeGrace2

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Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Mark 14:
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Not really sure what you've got against heavenly clouds....
I don't. The Bible uses "heaven" to refer to the atmosphere that surrounds the earth as well.

However, I get my view from the 2 "men in white" who told the 11 how Jesus would return in Acts 1. I find it quite instructive.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The words "will come back" mean that Jesus will return to earth, the place He had just departed from. Since it isn't possible to see heaven now, much less if there are clouds in heaven, which is God's abode, I'm sure the 2 men were telling the 11 that Jesus was coming back to earth in the clouds.

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

I do not believe this refers to clouds of heaven. As Jesus was departing earth upward, a cloud him Him from their sight.

So I firmly believe that His return will be just the same as when He left, because that's what the 2 "men in white" said about it.

Am I missing something here?
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Cracks me up how Paul was simply asked, when our loved ones die, will we ever see them again(?), and when he answered about being Caught Up, it has turned into the biggest false Doctrine ever taught to the followers of Almighty God. It's literally mind boggling how gullible some truthfully are.
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Thanks.
 

AandW

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Jun 9, 2021
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I know several people are concerned over the possibility of a "herd gathering" ordered by the Government over this Covid vaccination. And many are in complete defiance about getting vaccinated. But isn't it interesting what God, Peter and Paul claims about Government?

1) Matthew 22:21 Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

2) 2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

3) Romans 13 1. All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God.
2. So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.

BTW, herd gathering is a good indication were in the first portion of Tribulation and means no Pre-Trib Rapture.
 

AandW

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Jun 9, 2021
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Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Thanks.
Let's use the very words of Christ!


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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1) How do you know that it will be "a hundred times worse" than now?

And, 'now' has been getting 'worse' for a very long time.

Remember that - it is very highly significant to this issue.


Have you read Revelation, realizing that most of it is LITERAL ? ? ?

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Revelation 6:13-14 (NKJV)

13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Revelation 6:13-14 (NKJV)

13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
{That is ALL LITERAL and it is ONLY the Beginning of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and that is how BAD THE EARTHQUAKE WILL BE.}


Colossians 1:16-17 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.


That is HOW BAD IT GETS the moment HE GETS ANGRY ENOUGH to LET GO OF HIS CREATION.

Literally a Hundred Times worse.

WHAT HAPPENS to the PEOPLE who are not Part of the RAPTURE? It tells us in the SAME CHAPTER of Revelation:

Revelation 6:15-17 (HCSB)
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

ALL OF THAT IS LITERAL, DOWN TO THE LAST DETAIL. NO ONE HAS EVEN TRIED TO HIDE HIMSELF IN CAVES FROM GOD, BUT THEY WILL.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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I know several people are concerned over the possibility of a "herd gathering" ordered by the Government over this Covid vaccination. And many are in complete defiance about getting vaccinated. But isn't it interesting what God, Peter and Paul claims about Government?

1) Matthew 22:21 Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

2) 2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

3) Romans 13 1. All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God.
2. So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.

BTW, herd gathering is a good indication were in the first portion of Tribulation and means no Pre-Trib Rapture.
I don't completely agree that governments should be obeyed when they ask their subjects to sin, but that is a whole 'nother topic.

Care to elaborate a little more about what you mean by "herd gathering" and how, in your estimation, it means we're in the first portion of the tribulation?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Probably not. I've never heard of the "uprooting horn", which is why I was asking. There are details in Revelation that the Holy Spirit didn't provide. So don't sweat those things.

I'm sure things will make much more sense once "all hell breaks loose". Anyway, I was raised pretrib and like so many others, just accepted what I was taught. It wasn't until a good friend challenged my view on the rapture that I really began to study it in detail and find the truth.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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No wonder evangelicals are so confused, and about a whole lot of things.
Indeed...

It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur. Those alive during that time will then slap their foreheads and cry "Duh"!
In an overall sense, I liked your post. And, I realize you were no-doubt mainly just trying to make a point with this. However, I suggest that these things can be understood if the scripture interpretation is correct.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Paul's, or Christ's; they are saying the very same thing!!
And of course Matthew 24:29-31 completely prevents the possibility of their being a pre-trib rapture because it isn't addressed to just Jews, but rather to the elect who are believers.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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In 175 pages, no one has shown any verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. So even though the great theologian Walvoord claims they will be, no one can prove it from Scripture.

Just sayin'
Because the pre-trib rapture doesn't exist. I believe the pre-tribbers are in some sort of bondage. I can't figure out why they bend over backwards to twist the scripture. I e never seen ignorance so invincible.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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What are the stakes here. Why is the heaven issue so important to you? How does it impact pre-trib?
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Thanks.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,819
403
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In an overall sense, I liked your post. And, I realize you were no-doubt mainly just trying to make a point with this. However, I suggest that these things can be understood if the scripture interpretation is correct.
I agree with you that if there are verses that explain something they were meant to be understood. I think the key is "detail". When God gives the detail, it can be understood.

But if He didn't, there isn't anything to understand.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Thanks.
What are the stakes here. Why is the heaven issue so important to you? How does it impact pre-trib?
Because the entire thrust of a pretrib rapture is the trip to heaven after being resurrected or raptured.

Even the article by Walvoord in the OP opened up by citing 1 Thess 4 and saying that they all go to heaven, even though there is NO mention of going to heaven. Not in that verse, and not in any verse.

So, if pretribbers are trying to convince anyone of their position, they need to have biblical evidence for it. And they don't.