50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... strangely, you seem to have left that passage off, though having no problem mentioning Isaiah 25v6-9.

[and, as far as Isa25:8 goes... see my posts on the "THEN" word used in 1Cor15:24 "THEN the end"... which is a SEQUENCE word only, with NO time-element attached with it... so that vv.23-24 is speaking of SEQUENCE issues... IOW, "THEN the end" is NOT saying "Then IMMEDIATELY the end"... Also note the remainder of the context, speaking of the "last enemy destroyed" issue]



^ [re: the part I bolded] That idea has been debunked so many times, I'm surprised you are still using it.
yep
unbelievable
 

Absolutely

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There IS NO "harvest" DURING the GT.

When you say 'harvest' - by definition - you are referring to a 'resurrection' - correct?
the 144k are firstfruits

hello?????That is harvested,(harvested first)
impossible to miss.
you walked up to the barn and emptied both barrels from 2 ft away and missed.

the main HARVEST FOLLOWS firstfruits.

rev 14 has both.
stop lying
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Modern day forum dwellers correcting actual Bible scholars who translated the Bible.

CLASSIC.

Aint it amazing how we got so many experts on here on the greek language? How many of yall could order a Gyros in greece?

Thats always a red flag, WATCH OUT for the greek fellas. WATCH OUT. And this aint no knock on pre-tribbers either as MANY of them agree that apostasia means apostasy, id argue MOST pre-tribbers believe that. Atleast all the pastors ive heard teach and preach, the KJVonly ones especially.
 

Truth7t7

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Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period."

[end quoting]


____________

This sequence is repeated 3x in this context (and agrees with same sequence of all other related passages on this Subject).
Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False)

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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The Greek language had a word for "fall"... "pipto". This here in this text ain't that word.

Stick to the actual text, please. ;)
Today you made a post I could read without getting a headache but you've since reverted to excessively overemphasising your font.

Not only did you fail to convince me that apostasy = rapture but you've demonstrated why I suspect the pretrib doctrine has something more
sinister driving it than a simple disagreement over timing.
It's not the first time I've read that claim. You would have more success convincing me the moon is made of chocolate cake.
Also the nitpicking of Bill Mounce is rather distasteful.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False) (Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)
No. That is definitely NOT false. It is necessary ( a precondition) that before the Man of Sin is revealed there is a major falling away from the true Gospel and Bible truth in Christendom. And we are currently in that stage.

It is also necessary that the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way. And since the true Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the true Church is also taken out of the way (and taken up to Heaven).
 

Truth7t7

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No. That is definitely NOT false. It is necessary ( a precondition) that before the Man of Sin is revealed there is a major falling away from the true Gospel and Bible truth in Christendom. And we are currently in that stage.

It is also necessary that the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way. And since the true Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the true Church is also taken out of the way (and taken up to Heaven).
60 King James Translators And Strong's State Your claim is also (False)

Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False)

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Rondonmon

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Paul took the position of Jesus Christ on when His return would be, which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Which is described in the preceding verses what we know to be the great tribulation, characterized by end times events. (Read Matthew 24)

The gathering of Jesus' elect by His angels occurs after the great tribulation. The rapture is conclusively post-tribulation by very sound reason and logic.
Wrong on both accounts, Paul stated the Dead in Christ would rise, then we which are alive would change in the TWINKLING of an eye (which means we DIE and go to Heaven as Spirit Men). This happens before the 70th week can begin. If I have tod a post or mid tribber this once O have told them 1000 ties, but they just ignore that facts......THIS.......Jesus does return AFTER the Tribulation, which the Church wh have Married Jesus in Heaven, just as Rv. 19 says, on white horses (which just means as Conquerors tbh). So, yes Jesus returns AFTER the Tribulation to set up his 1000 year reign on earth, but what does that have to do with calling his Bride home for the wedding and the 7 days (7 years) they spend in the bridal chambers? The answer, NOTHING. You conflate two separate issues and then actually think you have gotten it correct. It's like me telling someone, HEY The Yankees are going to be in Tampa Bay on the last day of the Season, then telling me I am wrong when I tell him they are going to be in Houston for a three games series before that. BOTH are true, You insist only one is true, thus you conflate the two issues.

Think of it like this, the 7 Feasts were EXACT SHADOWS of world history to come.

Spring Feasts

1.) Passover (Jesus fulfilled that of course)
2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin)
3.) First-fruits (Jesus as the firstfruits of the grave)

Summer Harvest

4.) Feast of Week/Pentecost/Summer Harvest ( This was always all alone on the calendar year all unto itself. Jesus on Pentecost gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit and commissioned the Disciples to go unto the Gentile world and thus the Church Age Harvest was brought forth. the Spring Harvest was the Jewish years, now the mantle had been passed for a time unto the Gentiles. Thee Trump or Shofar always ENDED THE HARVEST so Paul's Last Trump is speaking about Jesus blowing the Trump to end the Church Age. (Rev. 4:1).

Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled

5. Feast of Trumps ( this never did much according to Jewish Historians, except END &n BEGIN things or make announcements. Thus the Trump ENDED the Harvest and announced that the Feasts ATONEMENT and TABERNACLE were nigh at hand.)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who needs to ATONE before the 70th-week prophecy can come to pass? Israel, of course, what does Zechariah 13:8-9 say Israel does just before the Day of the Lord (1260) Event? It says that 1/3 of thee Jews repent, thus that means 3-5 million Jews repent, then Flee Judea when they see the AoD. Thus Israel ATONES)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( The word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, and God Himself takes Israel on His Eagles wings to a safe place in the Petra/Bozrah mountainous area where He protects them for 1260 days, then Jesus dwells in Jerusalem for 1000 years. So, its very clear, the CHURCH AGE is all alone on the calendar by itself for a reason, God deals with the Gentile Nations during the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, then call us home via a TRUMP and starts dealing with Israel again.)

Nothing about the Rapture fits ANYTHING bit Pre Trib understanding my friend.
 

Truth7t7

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the 144k are firstfruits

hello?????That is harvested,(harvested first)
impossible to miss.
you walked up to the barn and emptied both barrels from 2 ft away and missed.

the main HARVEST FOLLOWS firstfruits.

rev 14 has both.
stop lying
There is one future resurrection of "All" that have lived John 5:28-29, this take place on the (Last Day) John 6:39-40, at the (Last Day) final judgement John 12:48

Your Teaching Of Multiple Resurrections At Different Times Is 100% (False)

All That Are In The Graves

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The (Last Day) Resurrection

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The (Last Day) Final Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Also the nitpicking of Bill Mounce is rather distasteful.
Who's "nit-picking" about Bill Mounce?

I was asking if the poster who had provided his definition of "apostasia" also agreed with his eschatology.

I myself had also provided Greek scholars (more than one) showing that same word's definition... but heard little response.
 

Truth7t7

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Today you made a post I could read without getting a headache but you've since reverted to excessively overemphasising your font.

Not only did you fail to convince me that apostasy = rapture but you've demonstrated why I suspect the pretrib doctrine has something more
sinister driving it than a simple disagreement over timing.
It's not the first time I've read that claim. You would have more success convincing me the moon is made of chocolate cake.
Also the nitpicking of Bill Mounce is rather distasteful.
The #1 sinister teaching in Dispensationalism and Millennialism is, that Jesus Christ is going to return to earth, and take a physical throne of King David in Jerusalem amongst mortal humans?

This false, sinister, teaching is paving the way in the minds of the unaware, this will be the (Little Horn) (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) (The Antichrist) proclaiming to be Messiah to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church

Jesus Christ Won't Be Found Any Place On This Earth, Hanging Out With Mortal Humans

"Go Not Forth" "Believe It Not"!

Beware!

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Wrong on both accounts, Paul stated the Dead in Christ would rise, then we which are alive would change in the TWINKLING of an eye (which means we DIE and go to Heaven as Spirit Men). This happens before the 70th week can begin. If I have tod a post or mid tribber this once O have told them 1000 ties, but they just ignore that facts......THIS.......Jesus does return AFTER the Tribulation, which the Church wh have Married Jesus in Heaven, just as Rv. 19 says, on white horses (which just means as Conquerors tbh). So, yes Jesus returns AFTER the Tribulation to set up his 1000 year reign on earth, but what does that have to do with calling his Bride home for the wedding and the 7 days (7 years) they spend in the bridal chambers? The answer, NOTHING. You conflate two separate issues and then actually think you have gotten it correct. It's like me telling someone, HEY The Yankees are going to be in Tampa Bay on the last day of the Season, then telling me I am wrong when I tell him they are going to be in Houston for a three games series before that. BOTH are true, You insist only one is true, thus you conflate the two issues.

Think of it like this, the 7 Feasts were EXACT SHADOWS of world history to come.

Spring Feasts

1.) Passover (Jesus fulfilled that of course)
2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus was without sin)
3.) First-fruits (Jesus as the firstfruits of the grave)

Summer Harvest

4.) Feast of Week/Pentecost/Summer Harvest ( This was always all alone on the calendar year all unto itself. Jesus on Pentecost gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit and commissioned the Disciples to go unto the Gentile world and thus the Church Age Harvest was brought forth. the Spring Harvest was the Jewish years, now the mantle had been passed for a time unto the Gentiles. Thee Trump or Shofar always ENDED THE HARVEST so Paul's Last Trump is speaking about Jesus blowing the Trump to end the Church Age. (Rev. 4:1).

Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled

5. Feast of Trumps ( this never did much according to Jewish Historians, except END &n BEGIN things or make announcements. Thus the Trump ENDED the Harvest and announced that the Feasts ATONEMENT and TABERNACLE were nigh at hand.)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who needs to ATONE before the 70th-week prophecy can come to pass? Israel, of course, what does Zechariah 13:8-9 say Israel does just before the Day of the Lord (1260) Event? It says that 1/3 of thee Jews repent, thus that means 3-5 million Jews repent, then Flee Judea when they see the AoD. Thus Israel ATONES)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( The word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, and God Himself takes Israel on His Eagles wings to a safe place in the Petra/Bozrah mountainous area where He protects them for 1260 days, then Jesus dwells in Jerusalem for 1000 years. So, its very clear, the CHURCH AGE is all alone on the calendar by itself for a reason, God deals with the Gentile Nations during the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, then call us home via a TRUMP and starts dealing with Israel again.)

Nothing about the Rapture fits ANYTHING bit Pre Trib understanding my friend.
Jesus mentions no gathering of any sort, marriage, harvesting, etc before His second coming on the clouds with His angels which you have agreed occurs after the great tribulation.
 

Runningman

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The dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive and remain will be changed. The resurrection occurs on the last day (John 6:54) which means the rapture and resurrection occur together.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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Wrong on both accounts, Paul stated the Dead in Christ would rise, then we which are alive would change in the TWINKLING of an eye (which means we DIE and go to Heaven as Spirit Men). This happens before the 70th week can begin.
Your Claim Of A Pre-Trib Resurrection Is 100% (False)

There is one future resurrection of "All" that have lived John 5:28-29, this take place on the (Last Day) John 6:39-40, at the (Last Day) final judgement John 12:48

All That Are In The Graves, The Last Day Resurrection And Final Judgement

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The (Last Day) Resurrection

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The (Last Day) Final Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
879
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Jesus mentions no gathering of any sort, marriage, harvesting, etc before His second coming on the clouds with His angels which you have agreed occurs after the great tribulation.
Meaning YOU CAN'T SEE IT...........but I can, which means what? Jesus said he spoke in parables so the world hearing would not hear and seeing would not see. But told his Disciples so they could understand. I can't help those that can't see the obvious brother. You allow your beliefs to override the facts. Thats on you.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
879
105
43
Your Claim Of A Pre-Trib Resurrection Is 100% (False)

There is one future resurrection of "All" that have lived John 5:28-29, this take place on the (Last Day) John 6:39-40, at the (Last Day) final judgement John 12:48

All That Are In The Graves

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The (Last Day) Resurrection

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The (Last Day) Final Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Meaning YOU CAN'T SEE IT...........but I can, which means what? Jesus said he spoke in parables so the world hearing would not hear and seeing would not see. But told his Disciples so they could understand. I can't help those that can't see the obvious brother. You allow your beliefs to override the facts. That's on you.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Meaning YOU CAN'T SEE IT...........but I can, which means what? Jesus said he spoke in parables so the world hearing would not hear and seeing would not see. But told his Disciples so they could understand. I can't help those that can't see the obvious brother. You allow your beliefs to override the facts. Thats on you.
Same to you.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
7,708
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Meaning YOU CAN'T SEE IT...........but I can, which means what? Jesus said he spoke in parables so the world hearing would not hear and seeing would not see. But told his Disciples so they could understand. I can't help those that can't see the obvious brother. You allow your beliefs to override the facts. That's on you.
Your living in denial of God's clear words below, and your not alone.

Your Claim Of A Pre-Trib Resurrection Is 100% (False)

There is one future resurrection of "All" that have lived John 5:28-29, this take place on the (Last Day) John 6:39-40, at the (Last Day) final judgement John 12:48

All That Are In The Graves, The Last Day Resurrection And Final Judgement

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The (Last Day) Resurrection

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The (Last Day) Final Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The (Last Day) Resurrection And Final Judgement

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,937
1,545
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Modern day forum dwellers correcting actual Bible scholars who translated the Bible.

CLASSIC.
Aint it amazing how we got so many experts on here on the greek language? How many of yall could order a Gyros in greece?

Thats always a red flag, WATCH OUT for the greek fellas. WATCH OUT. And this aint no knock on pre-tribbers either as MANY of them agree that apostasia means apostasy, id argue MOST pre-tribbers believe that. Atleast all the pastors ive heard teach and preach, the KJVonly ones especially.
Again, the first SEVEN English translations, before the kjv existed, translated it either as "[a] departing" (noun) or "departure"... here's just one of those:

Geneva Bible of 1587 -
"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"

I was taught this fact by my pastor way back in the 70s, that this was the case (about "versions" prior to the kjv, saying this ^ ).

I'm uncertain what other point you are making here. Are you suggesting that only the "post-tribbers" have provided Greek scholars' work, and that the "pre-tribbers" are simply "making stuff up" off the top of our heads in order to cling to our (supposedly) deluded ideas of "pre-trib"??

(btw, I do disagree with a great deal of "Abs' unique viewpoints," just to be clear ;) )

How do you explain that [7] English translations PRIOR to the kjv's existence, translated the word as "[a] departing" or "departure" (if we supposedly "made up" such an idea so it would "fit" our "narrative")? Is this what you are suggesting, or what? I don't get it.