50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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They have to get more and more "clever" ( italics because they are not) to reconcile the notion in their minds that the rapture and the 2nd coming on white horses are the same exact event.

They get owned, stand in their doctrine's ashes of ruin, and with a supernatural poker face, pretend they have standing.

It is getting more and more comical.
It almost seems as though they are brainwashed, in that they are programmed to reject the truth at every turn. In doing so, they continue with the false apologetics and ignore the scriptures that destroy their claims.

The purpose of our contention is not to be against them, but to get them to open their eyes to see what we God's word says about this subject. I don't know why we should be surprised though, for the word of God says that there would be those who would abandon the truth in the last days.

Can you imagine what they are teaching to a new believer? 'The good news is that you have forgiveness of sins and eternal life. But the bad news is, you still have to go through the coming wrath of God. Sorry! Now comfort each other with these words.'

It certainly wouldn't be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other with those words, if we were to have to through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which Jesus said would be a time of tribulation unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And they think that the Lord is going to put His bride through that!
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Yes

Concerning the last supper dialogue;
Jesus said " i will not drink of the cup again until i drink it anew with you in Gods kingdom"

That drink part destroys the notion of non glorified bodies in houses in heaven.

They get owned by their "CLEVRNESS"
Exactly! But you already know the false apologetic that they came up with. They will call it the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven on earth, in order to do away with the fact that the wedding feast will take place in heaven.

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
 

TheDivineWatermark

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How about v.3? "that day" refers to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord". He comes on a specific singular day.
By "passage" I take that as v.1-3. So yes. v.3 refers back to v.1.
Regardless of how one understands the DofL in v.2, it begins on a singular day, regardless of how long it lasts.
From v.2, I understand that the DotL begins when Christ returns, on "that day".
I'm asking, where is another mention of a "rapture" concept (in this overall context), aside from v.1's "our episynagoges unto Him" ? (in your view)



... nothing in your response covered what I asked from you.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I really don't get why we'd need to exit the vicinity of God's wrath when it is not directed toward us in the first place. I mean, if two can be side by side, in the same field, same bed... and be selectively 'raptured,' 'taken,' or 'left'...as pertaining to the better outcome, then why wouldn't this be the case in the context of wrath?
Start from the beginning of this thread and read through several hundred pages. That question is been answered many many MANY dozens of times.
 

cv5

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I can't find any pretrib rapture verses so how can I find the only part of the absolute certainty of a pretrib rapture. I'd think if the proof was overwhelming, then I'd be overwhelmed with proof... but being overwhelming with suggestions of proof is only really being overwhelmed with suggestions. I could suggest there is a gold the hill but you wouldn't give me your life savings for even an acre unless you actually saw gold that came out of that hill.
Pretrib VERSES are the declaration of the pretrib CONCEPT. This CONCEPT can only be fully understood in light of the entirety of the OT prophecies and the NT revelation of the mystery of the Church. Furthermore it must be understood in light of the clear statements AND ACTIONS Christ made during His first advent tenure on the earth.

Alternatively you can simply accept the pre-trib rapture on faith alone. You can't go wrong with that either because it is in fact true.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Pretrib VERSES are the declaration of the pretrib CONCEPT. This CONCEPT can only be fully understood in light of the entirety of the OT prophecies and the NT revelation of the mystery of the Church. Furthermore it must be understood in light of the clear statements AND ACTIONS Christ made during His first advent tenure on the earth.

Alternatively you can simply accept the pre-trib rapture on faith alone. You can't go wrong with that either because it is in fact true.
Start from the beginning of this thread and read through several hundred pages. That question is been answered many many MANY dozens of times.
All those suggestions, whether 50 or 5000 of a pretrib rapture, look like pyrite to me.
 
Jun 30, 2021
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A HUGE reason it is not:

Theosis is entry into the kingdom

It is not a mass event, each has their individual time

Revelation is about events around 73 and the Temple

The number stands for Nero

Michael is on the throne, the one who is like God

22:1-5 is beautiful
 
Oct 23, 2020
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I'm sorry
I think you're missing Ahwatukee's point.

--[8b] "the MANIFESTATION of His coming / presence / parousia" is what happens at His Second Coming to the earth, which is STILL "the Day of the Lord" time-period (and it's still "the day of the Lord" time-period clear till the end of the MK age);

--[1] "the coming/presence/parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" happens when the Lord shall "descend" to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (but He is not "MANIFEST" to "EVERY EYE" at that point, like v.8b is speaking of... v.8a happens well-before that point also);




In verse 2, Paul is basically saying, don't believe anyone trying to tell you "that the day of the Lord is present / is already here" (not "that the Rapture is already here / is already present"... and not "that Christ's [OWN Personal/Physical] presence / coming / parousia" is already here / is already present... but "that the day of the Lord [A TIME-PERIOD] is already here / is already present").

It isn't.

And then he tells WHY that that [/such a claim] is NOT SO.
Hi TDW, I'm sorry, I keep reading it, but I simply cannot understand your point here.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Hi Ahawatukee,

So you are saying very simply:

the Lord comes, he takes down the bad guy, then he gets his guys and gals outta there, and then he torches the earth.

I didn't mean it to sound like a Bruce Willis film, but it just came out that way.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Below is the chronological order of what I am saying:

* We are here

* Lord descends and gathers the church, where He takes us back to the Father's house

* The Day of the Lord begins, the time of God's wrath, carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

* After the 7th bowl Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* Beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Wicked are killed by the double-edged sword and the birds that the angel will have gathered eat their flesh

* Satan is cast into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* Millennial kingdom
ah ok - this is good, very clear, thank you Ahwatukee.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I'm sorry

Hi TDW, I'm sorry, I keep reading it, but I simply cannot understand your point here.
The "false conveyors" (with a "false claim") that Paul is writing about in v.2... got that?... the contents of the "false claim" had/has nothing whatsoever to do with the Subject of "Rapture" OR "Christ's Second Coming [/ parousia / presence]". Clear enough yet? = )
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Below is the chronological order of what I am saying:

* We are here

* Lord descends and gathers the church, where He takes us back to the Father's house

* The Day of the Lord begins, the time of God's wrath, carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

* After the 7th bowl Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* Beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Wicked are killed by the double-edged sword and the birds that the angel will have gathered eat their flesh

* Satan is cast into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* Millennial kingdom
These ideas seem quite sensible really. I'm not sure why TDW tries to separate the DOTL from the Lord's Coming.
Do you understand his/her point?

I still don't see why 2 Thessalonians 2 has to be part of this overall picture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ because "the day of the Lord" includes both of the following:

--a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth;

[followed by and INCLUDING]

--a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs also unfolding upon the earth




And we know from Paul that its ARRIVAL is like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...

... so FrGr2 had it correct (before he changed his mind) that "the day of the Lord" INCLUDES the 7-yr trib.




The "7-yr trib" aspect is the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect of it.

But it doesn't end there (at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), no, it continues on to include also the entire MK age (so includes also the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect, *and* the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect... ALL THREE ASPECTS are what "the day of the Lord" consists of; you're missing a chunk of it... namely its "ARRIVAL" aspect [see also 2Pet3:10-12 as COMPARED with BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35])
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Ok so...

The pretrib position hinges on the tribulation not beginning until the man of sin is reveal and the DOTL includes the tribulation of the saints, except those raptured before tribulation, who commence to enjoy tea and crumpets in their own private party, of course.

and

The postrib position stands that the DOTL does not begin until the man of sin is revealed (both agree on this point, yaye!) and excludes the tribulation, of which all must partake in together with those that went before them, as also with the reception afterwards.
Root cause of that is reading the Bible entirely different, especially Revelation. Pre-tribbers usually maintain that Revelation is 100% chronological from front to back but that isn't possible.

There are numerous literary devices used in Revelation including repetition of parallel teachings that are reworded and repackaged using different imagery. There's also a lot of foreshadowing and figurative language that can be easily misunderstood.

It can be proven that the 6th seal in Revelation 6 describes the return of Jesus described in Matthew 24:29 (signs in the heavens - moon, sun, stars) and the day of God's wrath beginning.

I've talked with at least two pre-tribbers about this and they reject it. Not surprised.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Pre-tribbers usually maintain that Revelation is 100% chronological from front to back but that isn't possible.
False claim.

[Pre-tribber here :D ]

Pre-tribbers believe that the "SEALS-->TRUMPETS-->VIALS" are what is (for the most part) CHRONOLOGICAL (with only some "overlap" in the 7th Seal/1st Trumpet... and in the 7th Trumpet/1st Vial points in the chronology).

Pre-tribbers also believe there are chpts / sections that are like "interludes" in Revelation, that are for the purpose of further filling in of details.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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The part where they DRINK WITH JESUS, in heaven, destroys your supposition.
The passage didn't say "in heaven". It said "in God's kingdom". And I noted that God's kingdom will extend from the Second Advent through eternity. iow, from the DotL on. And the wedding occurs on earth.

So read it again. You will not see Jesus saying anything about "in heaven". That's just your presumption.

Pretrib is correct biblically.
Not only have you not shown any evidence for it, such as a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
 
Aug 16, 2020
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Take all this with a grain of salt - a BIG grain.

Walvoord was known as a Dispensationalist during his ministry of the mid-20th century. Right away a red flag should appear in front of your eyes. Dispensationalism is based upon the works of John Nelson Darby, a known consort of witches. But there's more.....

Dispensationalism is only the 19th century version of Roman Catholic FUTURISM, published by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in the late 16th century. RCC Futurism was designed to obstruct the Protestant Reformation and Dispensationalism was a thinly veiled attempt to disguise demonic doctrine promoted as gospel. The Roman Catholic church is identified in the book of Revelation as the anti-Christ BEAST system of the End Times. Thus both Dispensationalism and Futurism work together to obfuscate God's desire to let truth be known to the saints of earth. They combine to form the Great Deception spoken of in Revelation.

but there's more to consider.....

The chief assertion of Dispensationalism & Futurism is the anti-Semitic theme of the tribulation.

As a review, the Tribulation is basically stated as a time of great difficulty for the earth in general and Jews in particular. The purpose of this time of trouble is supposed to serve as a goad for Jews to convert to Christianity - to join a church to be saved. The RCC has been consistent with this bloody attitude for two thousand years and the protestant church today marches in lock-step with this heinous hate speech. According to some spin offs of the theme, traveling murderers will criss-cross the earth with sharpened blades to sever the heads of Jews who refuse to convert. I'm making generalizations here, but the basic theme is definitely repeated in written word as well as sermons throughout the land.

Would any sane Jew believe this threat and accept Christ especially when civilizations have been trying to enslave and murder them for four thousand years? I think not, yet Christians buy this gimmick and buy books magazines and taped sermons by the ton.

At its root, both Walvoord and his idea of the Tribulation was born of the devil. It should be considered for the trash it really is.

Is Jesus Christ the author of love or the leader of a pack of head-cutting anti-Semites who demand Jews join the church or die? Are we to believe the language set before us or not?

This is the real question before us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^

[quoting] "...along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the “new Israel” (cf. CCC 877)."


[end quoting; bold and underline mine]




____________

We do not believe that ^ .
 

FreeGrace2

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"""Says the guy who has zero verses to support Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven."""

They are there.
So again you have only suppositions.
Then why do you not cite or quote them? if you make claims, you need evidence from Scripture, which you don't have.

The school bus takes the children to school . we both see them enter the bus.
So you think Jesus uses a school bus to take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? I wonder how many it will take. lol

You= " did you see the bus arrive at school. I say they did a uturn and went home. There is no evidence they went to school...did you see the bus arrive at school???? Do you have pictures????"
Do you know what this reveals? your whole point is nothing but presumption.

Me= who are those young uns sitting in the school and how did they get there?
OK, Mr presumption. Show me a verse that shows resurrected and raptured believers in heaven.

You cannot reconciled the rapture verses
On the contrary, I read them and find that NONE of them mentions Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

I still have my unanswered challenge to postribbers to please, please post for us a postrib rapture verse.
None have to date.
Nonsense. 2 Thess 2:1 very clearly places the gathering (rapture) with the "coming of the Lord" (Second Advent) which occurs AFTER the rebellion and a/c revealed.