50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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What "logical conversation?" Walvoord's purpose is to persuade protestants of the concept of Roman Catholic doctrine of the End Times. Calling a lie a lie isn't name calling - its truth.

Skipping over what I wrote is not sufficient to justify the accusation that I have no point. I DO HAVE A POINT and it was written above. Go back and read it. Consider the words.

Oh yes and by the way I didn't accuse Walvoord of anything untoward. I only said he was presenting a bogus doctrine for profit.

The rest of my words were historically and theologically truthful and accurate. Search the books of history and the pages of scripture if you dare.

Or just sit there and refuse every effort of anyone else to present God's honest truth.

It won't hurt to study (1 Tim 2:15), but it will cost you the penalty of living the rest of your life in darkness if you don't. (John 3:19)

In either case, I won't charge you a dime for my advice - BUT WALVOORD WILL. Consider the poisonous fruit he panders to the church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
you make no sense at all sir.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,405
2,533
113
What "logical conversation?" Walvoord's purpose is to persuade protestants of the concept of Roman Catholic doctrine of the End Times. Calling a lie a lie isn't name calling - its truth.

Skipping over what I wrote is not sufficient to justify the accusation that I have no point. I DO HAVE A POINT and it was written above. Go back and read it. Consider the words.

Oh yes and by the way I didn't accuse Walvoord of anything untoward. I only said he was presenting a bogus doctrine for profit.

The rest of my words were historically and theologically truthful and accurate. Search the books of history and the pages of scripture if you dare.

Or just sit there and refuse every effort of anyone else to present God's honest truth.

It won't hurt to study (1 Tim 2:15), but it will cost you the penalty of living the rest of your life in darkness if you don't. (John 3:19)

In either case, I won't charge you a dime for my advice - BUT WALVOORD WILL. Consider the poisonous fruit he panders to the church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
maybe center your position in the bible?

That is "my advice"

Since you go there.
 
Aug 16, 2020
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you make no sense at all sir.
Why am I not surprised?

It is easier to squeeze a camel through the eye of a needle than to convince a man of the chains he wears.

Want sense, here's a little bit for you to chew on. The rapture and tribulation and a lot of other rubbish are RCC doctrines originally composed by Jesuit priest Franciso Ribera. Its purpose is to derail the corrections offered by Reformation fathers. It worked. Protestants today are so enamored of these lies that they refuse to even examine the basis for them.

Thus shall they live in darkness for the rest of their natural lives. (John 3:19)

Is that sense enough for you?

Ask with sincere desire to know the truth and I can provide additional illumination - free of charge, btw.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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May the Lord richly bless you VCO in your day and endeavors.
May his favor envelope you and your health and mind be strengthened and renewed in the power of the Holy Spirit.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,405
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Why am I not surprised?

It is easier to squeeze a camel through the eye of a needle than to convince a man of the chains he wears.

Want sense, here's a little bit for you to chew on. The rapture and tribulation and a lot of other rubbish are RCC doctrines originally composed by Jesuit priest Franciso Ribera. Its purpose is to derail the corrections offered by Reformation fathers. It worked. Protestants today are so enamored of these lies that they refuse to even examine the basis for them.

Thus shall they live in darkness for the rest of their natural lives. (John 3:19)

Is that sense enough for you?

Ask with sincere desire to know the truth and I can provide additional illumination - free of charge, btw.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Ok bless you my brother.

May his favor be on you as well.

I am more concept vs concept oriented.
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
maybe center your position in the bible?

That is "my advice"

Since you go there.
It is typical of the Biblically illiterate person to accuse another of a lack of scholarship when they themselves refuse study (2 Tim 2:15).

I hold a Masters degree in theology and have studied the Bible throughout, including the precepts of the Tanakh of which most Christians are either unaware or reject outright.

I have found that few are 'centered' as you say..... Some are more informed than the rest, while those that know the least claim they have supreme understanding when all they can do is parrot religious slogans and buzz words.

Beware of ignorance, it will chain the reader to false notions about God and His plan of redemption.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,405
2,533
113
It is typical of the Biblically illiterate person to accuse another of a lack of scholarship when they themselves refuse study (2 Tim 2:15).

I hold a Masters degree in theology and have studied the Bible throughout, including the precepts of the Tanakh of which most Christians are either unaware or reject outright.

I have found that few are 'centered' as you say..... Some are more informed than the rest, while those that know the least claim they have supreme understanding when all they can do is parrot religious slogans and buzz words.

Beware of ignorance, it will chain the reader to false notions about God and His plan of redemption.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Ok
I will watch out for that as well.

Peace on you.
May Jesus bless your day my brother.
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
Ok bless you my brother.

May his favor be on you as well.

I am more concept vs concept oriented.
Nice play on words - concept vs. concept. That just means you only wish to argue.

I've tried to explain the origin of the false doctrines that percolate throughout plastic Christianity today. Typically there are plastic answers to helpful advice I've given.

His favor IS upon me as I walk in the light He has provided. It is my desire to share that light upon those who insist upon living in the land of darkness and ignorance. Do you accept the advice to "study to show yourself approved" or do you reject it? So far its been the latter. I would wish it to be otherwise. Only then would you be 'oriented'.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,405
2,533
113
Nice play on words - concept vs. concept. That just means you only wish to argue.

I've tried to explain the origin of the false doctrines that percolate throughout plastic Christianity today. Typically there are plastic answers to helpful advice I've given.

His favor IS upon me as I walk in the light He has provided. It is my desire to share that light upon those who insist upon living in the land of darkness and ignorance. Do you accept the advice to "study to show yourself approved" or do you reject it? So far its been the latter. I would wish it to be otherwise. Only then would you be 'oriented'.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Ok
Good for you sir.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,360
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Nice play on words - concept vs. concept. That just means you only wish to argue.

I've tried to explain the origin of the false doctrines that percolate throughout plastic Christianity today. Typically there are plastic answers to helpful advice I've given.

His favor IS upon me as I walk in the light He has provided. It is my desire to share that light upon those who insist upon living in the land of darkness and ignorance. Do you accept the advice to "study to show yourself approved" or do you reject it? So far its been the latter. I would wish it to be otherwise. Only then would you be 'oriented'.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
That's you looking to draw away disciples unto yourself.......IMO.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,288
4,238
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Nice play on words - concept vs. concept. That just means you only wish to argue.

I've tried to explain the origin of the false doctrines that percolate throughout plastic Christianity today. Typically there are plastic answers to helpful advice I've given.

His favor IS upon me as I walk in the light He has provided. It is my desire to share that light upon those who insist upon living in the land of darkness and ignorance. Do you accept the advice to "study to show yourself approved" or do you reject it? So far its been the latter. I would wish it to be otherwise. Only then would you be 'oriented'.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

No, you really make no sense at all. So you have earned a one way trip to my IGNORE List.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,787
772
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Want sense, here's a little bit for you to chew on. The rapture and tribulation and a lot of other rubbish are RCC doctrines originally composed by Jesuit priest Franciso Ribera.
lol, that's false. The rapture and the tribulation are well known biblical facts:

Rapture (in Greek the word is Harpazo):

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Tribulation:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Franciso Ribera did not write or invent these scriptures.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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God did not stop Daniel or Joseph from going through trials but God was with them and as a result their faith was tried and made stronger.
The wrath of God was shown on the Egyptians.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
Exo 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
Exo 7:18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

Many of the plagues would have affected the Israelites. But in the same way that God could have protected, prepared and enabled His people to go through it, He will do the same at the end.

It takes more faith to believe that Jesus will bring us through the trials then to believe that He takes us out of the trials.
Jesus is the Blood that i can paint on my door posts, Jesus is the arc that will bring me through the flood. Jesus will walk with me in the fires.

don't think that you need to be taken away to be saved from His wrath. Jesus is the Key.

Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
"""Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king."""

Which depicts the jews in the great trib but delivered out of it about halfway through.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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"""Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king."""

Which depicts the jews in the great trib but delivered out of it about halfway through.
God can deliver His people in any trial and in numerous ways, nothing is impossible for God. Jesus will be with His people in the hard times and they will have faith in Him. i don't see any reason in history or in scripture for God to magically cause His people to vanish just before his wrath comes. God is able to keep His people safe.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us.
Dan 6:20..... and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?

Yes in Daniels day and Yes in our day.

Luk_17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

It takes more faith to lay down your life for Jesus then it does to run and hide.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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God can deliver His people in any trial and in numerous ways, nothing is impossible for God. Jesus will be with His people in the hard times and they will have faith in Him. i don't see any reason in history or in scripture for God to magically cause His people to vanish just before his wrath comes. God is able to keep His people safe.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us.
Dan 6:20..... and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?

Yes in Daniels day and Yes in our day.

Luk_17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

It takes more faith to lay down your life for Jesus then it does to run and hide.


1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (GW)
9 It was not God's intention that we experience his anger but that we obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake in this life or asleep in death, we will live together with him.


Revelation 3:10-11 (GW)
10 Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you safe during the time of testing which is coming to the whole world to test those living on earth.
11 I am coming soon! Hold on to what you have so that no one takes your crown.


Revelation 4:4 (GW)
4 Around that throne were 24 other thrones, and on these thrones sat 24 leaders wearing white clothes. They had gold crowns on their heads. {The Church has been Raptured to Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb, and to KEEP THEM SAFE, as HE pours out WRATH, on the WHOLE EARTH.}


Revelation 5:9-12 (GW)
9 Then they sang a new song, “You deserve to take the scroll and open the seals on it, because you were slaughtered. You bought people with your blood to be God's own. They are from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You made them a kingdom and priests for our God. They will rule as kings on the earth.”
11 Then I heard the voices of many angels, the four living creatures, and the leaders surrounding the throne. They numbered ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands.
12 In a loud voice they were singing, “The lamb who was slain deserves to receive power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise.”


Revelation 6:9-11 (GW)
9 When the lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of God's word and the testimony they had given about him.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Holy and true Master, how long before you judge and take revenge on those living on earth who shed our blood?”
11 Each of the souls was given a white robe. They were told to rest a little longer until all their coworkers, the other Christians, would be killed as they had been killed. {Those are the BEHEADED Tribulation Saints, it appears all of them were beheaded before verse 12, then they go after the JEWS.}

Revelation 6:12-17 (GW)
12 I watched as the lamb opened the sixth seal. A powerful earthquake struck. The sun turned as black as sackcloth made of hair. The full moon turned as red as blood.
13 The stars fell from the sky to the earth like figs dropping from a fig tree when it is shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. Every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and all the slaves and free people hid themselves in caves and among the rocks in the mountains.
16 They said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the lamb,
17 because the frightening day of their anger has come, and who is able to endure it?”


Notice it says all people! That means the Church-age is all finished, and then GOD Finishes HIS First Covenant, the 70th Week of Daniel. The Last shall be FIRST, and the First shall be LAST.

I already have my invite to the Wedding of the Lamb in my heart. Perhaps you did not get the invite.

Revelation 19:9 (NIV)
9 Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added,
"These are the true words of God."
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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God can deliver His people in any trial and in numerous ways, nothing is impossible for God. Jesus will be with His people in the hard times and they will have faith in Him. i don't see any reason in history or in scripture for God to magically cause His people to vanish just before his wrath comes. God is able to keep His people safe.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us.
Dan 6:20..... and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?

Yes in Daniels day and Yes in our day.

Luk_17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

It takes more faith to lay down your life for Jesus then it does to run and hide.
Any hope of a bride subjected to wrath is taken away once you incorporate all the verses.

Your daniel verses were addressed.
You ignored it.
The 3 hebrew children were rescued IN THE FURNACE. BY JESUS.
100% Satisfies the gathering OF JEWS in the middle of the trib.

The 2 escape verses?
Are they also a put down of Jesus pattern?

The baby Jesus had to be removed prior to the devils firstborn slaughter?

Jesus is cowardly and ran away?

Lot could not be protected in sodom?
He had to be cowardly and run away?

When they were ready to stone Jesus, the bible says he ran away.

Could he not be protected?
Did he run away from fear?
Cowardness.?

The ac kills all refusing the mark.
If all believers die that refuse the mark, and they do, where is any living believers raptured in that erroneous theory.

Just pointing out verses for others.
I know you have an investment to protect.
It does not matter to you the verses that prove postrib is error
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
lol, that's false. The rapture and the tribulation are well known biblical facts:

Rapture (in Greek the word is Harpazo):

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Tribulation:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Franciso Ribera did not write or invent these scriptures.
You use scripture verses like bullets from a machine gun, but you know nothing of their contextual meaning nor that of the Bible in general.

In other words, like most deceived Christians who believe RCC dogma, you are SHOOTING BLANKS.

You known nothing of that which you write. You haven't investigated HISTORY nor the source of the Futurist dogma, but rely upon tissue thin quotations of scripture used like religious slogans and buzz words.

Your scripture means nothing because you know not of which it speaks.

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.

I've shared and continue to share Biblical context as well as historically accurate references, yet many refuse to accept the deception they've been persuaded to accept. If you do not ACT like a scholar you will continue to echo your false scripture references and believe the lie they suggest FOR THE REST OF YOUR NATURAL LIFE. You will NEVER be able to appreciate the deeper things of God and His kingdom.

Keep drinking babies' milk and you will never have strength or growth to do anything else.

Read the Bible instead of rereading your middle school level obscure references to occult theology.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,787
772
113
You use scripture verses like bullets from a machine gun, but you know nothing of their contextual meaning nor that of the Bible in general.

You are not only wrong, you teach false things about the bible. You are just upset that I proved you wrong when you denied the rapture and tribulation are biblical facts.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
7,937
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Looks like its time for this one again:

Post #4739 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4592185


[quoting that post]

^

[quoting] "...along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the “new Israel” (cf. CCC 877)."

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]


____________

We do not believe that ^ .


[end quoting Post #4739]


____________


... note: where the above issues are not understood, neither is the doctrine on the "rapture" understood ;)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,288
4,238
113
Looks like its time for this one again:

Post #4739 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4592185


[quoting that post]

^

[quoting] "...along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the “new Israel” (cf. CCC 877)."

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]


____________

We do not believe that ^ .


[end quoting Post #4739]


____________


... note: where the above issues are not understood, neither is the doctrine on the "rapture" understood ;)

1627432892883.png


ISRAEL is his Chosen NATION. We and not that nation, but we are his chosen to become Sons and Daughters.
The 144,000 are all JEWS, and they go into the millennial Kingdom in their Mortal Bodies to repopulate ISRAEL.
We go into the Kingdom in our eternal glorified Bodies.

Acts 13:42-44 (NKJV)
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.


Jews and Gentiles are TWO different Peoples. Gentiles are NEVER called new Israel. When they convert to Judaism, they are called devout proselytes by Paul himself, not new Israelites.

Romans 2:11 (HCSB)
11 There is no favoritism with God.

That is all that verse means, when HE SAYS:

Romans 10:12 (NIV)
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,