50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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So you are saying that the Thessalonians are "shaken" and "troubled" because they thought that TDOTL was "available"? Absolute hogwash.
I must agree.

"...that ye be not soon SHAKEN IN MIND , or BE TROUBLED [/DISTURBED / AGITATED / ALARMED]... [by anyone/those purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AVAILABLE"

...makes absolutely NO SENSE.




(not to mention, makes NO SENSE ^ of the CONTEXT; 2Th1:4 does, however;) [made it BELIEVEABLE!])
 

Runningman

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Gotcha...

I disagree based on the abundance of evidences I had supplied, in that, the text itself states "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"



Perfect Tense -
"ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►).
In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."


... and in this case, it is "perfect INDICATIVE"


https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm


The false conveyors were telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (that is, ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and still going on PRESENTLY...)

Now WHY would "false conveyors" (deceivers) be SAYING THAT??
No that isn't what it says. I think there comes a point where we can't discuss something if we aren't speaking the same language.

I have read your posts and it definitely was not a convincing explanation because the text plainly contradicts what you're saying they say.

I don't think you could convince anyone that what they are reading means something entirely different than what it says but you sure did try.
 

cv5

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I must agree.

"...that ye be not soon SHAKEN IN MIND , or BE TROUBLED [/DISTURBED / AGITATED / ALARMED]... [by anyone/those purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AVAILABLE"

...makes absolutely NO SENSE.




(not to mention, makes NO SENSE ^ of the CONTEXT; 2Th1:4 does, however;) [made it BELIEVEABLE!])
Amen brother.

It escapes their attention that the flip side of this present persecution is a future "REST" from it....WHEN Jesus is revealed from heaven. THEN the tables are turned. THEY suffer tribulation, WE receive consolation, rest and comfort because we ESCAPE tribulation. This dichotomy is expressly purposefully intentionally and manifestly evident. In every single case, whenever this topic is broached in Scripture.

2 Thes 1:6-7
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
and to give you who are troubled rest with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...

Both the repaying "with tribulation" and the "rest" occur contemporaneously, when and only when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven, meted out to two different discrete parties.

This business of the Church going through the tribulation is hogwash. And Scripture proves this many times many ways in many places. Over and over and over again.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Both the repaying "with tribulation" and the "rest" occur contemporaneously, when and only when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven, meted out to two different discrete parties.
Agreed!

The text in verse 7 that you quoted, actually states, "ye who are troubled/oppressed rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [involved in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials] in a flame of fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those knowing not God [Lk18:8 "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" same time-period Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 speaks of as the FUTURE aspects of the Book, aka the 7 Trib yrs], and not obeying/'hearkening' the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

(which is speaking of, DURING A SPECIFIC TIME-PERIOD unfolding upon the earth [SAME AS what is talked about in 2Th2:10-12 !! requiring (and describing) TIME UNFOLDING]... running CONCURRENTLY... and NOT merely in a split-second moment of time at His "RETURN" [which is what the part about "WHO SHALL BE [future-tense] PUNISHED... AWAY-FROM THE PRESENCE OF the Lord..."--that's at His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19, His "RETURN" point in time--where Rev19:19,21 [and parallels] correspond to the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in the Isaiah 24:21-22[23] passage!]).




Paul is not merely covering ONE POINT IN TIME, in these two chpts (it is a mistake to think he is), but is covering the ENTIRE 7-yrs just as other related texts do also!
 

Runningman

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[LISTING from BibleHub]

New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.

New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.

Contemporary English Version
not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim the Lord has already come. They may say they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.

Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.

International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.

NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.

New King James Version
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.

World English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come.

A Faithful Version
That you not be quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled--neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as if from us, saying that the day of Christ is present.

Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.

English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;

Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;

Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.

Young's Literal Translation
that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”

Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.

Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.

Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
In your interpretation you still place the departure of the church prior to the apostasy, man of sin, and the return of Jesus. Just doesn't work and contradicts what the texts say.

What you're proposing is literally impossible. You're reading it wrong.

The texts will read clearly to anyone who accepts them for what they say.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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No that isn't what it says. I think there comes a point where we can't discuss something if we aren't speaking the same language.

I have read your posts and it definitely was not a convincing explanation because the text plainly contradicts what you're saying they say.
I'm not understanding why ONE of your posts AGREES with what I'm pointing out, whereas another EARLIER post of yours DISAGREES and SAYS something ELSE:

[quoting]

Runningman's words / posts:

--"People were alleging the day of Christ had already come." Post #524 (pg27) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"

--"The false conveyors were saying the day of Christ (return of Christ) is at hand." Post #502 (pg26) - to which T7t7 gave an "AGREE"

[end quoting; bold mine]

Methinks you are now backpedaling from your Post on page 27, because you realize the ramifications of this acknowledgment of the TEXT, and how it would affect your ideas / scenario that you're endeavoring to cling to, despite every evidence to the contrary.

You're free to believe as you wish.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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In your interpretation you still place the departure of the church prior to the apostasy,
This ^ is NOT at all an accurate statement regarding my viewpoint! (just to be clear)



[Perhaps try re-phrasing this to more accurately represent what I HAVE been saying, instead,... which is NOT THAT ^ ! ]
 

lamad

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It really is plain as day if someone can read English well.
They were greatly disturbed - everyone should agree with this.

WHY were they disturbed? Because they were starting to believe, due to a forged letter or perhaps a prophecy, that the Day of the Lord had already started, and THEY WERE STILL HERE. It should be obvious then, that Paul had taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath (or the Day of His wrath.)

Key points people miss:
Verses 6 through 8 make it very clear that there was some POWER restraining the revealing of the man of sin, preventing his revealing until the proper time. And that at some point that power of restraining would be "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin would be revealed.

Next, in verse 3b we find the man of sin has been revealed for it is written, "be revealed" or "is revealed." Since Paul wrote that the only possible way he could be revealed is if the power restraining had been "taken out of the way" then logic demands that this "taking out of the way MUST have happened in verse 3a so that he was then revealed in 3b.

The only word that could mean something "taken out of the way" is to consider "apostasia" as some kind of departing or something "taken out of the way."
 

lamad

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In your interpretation you still place the departure of the church prior to the apostasy, man of sin, and the return of Jesus. Just doesn't work and contradicts what the texts say.

What you're proposing is literally impossible. You're reading it wrong.

The texts will read clearly to anyone who accepts them for what they say.
What if Paul meant by the "apostasia" the departing of the church?

Early translations:

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What comes first is the "departing." It seems that the Holy Spirit, working through the church, is the restraining power.
 

Runningman

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It really is plain as day if someone can read English well.
They were greatly disturbed - everyone should agree with this.

WHY were they disturbed? Because they were starting to believe, due to a forged letter or perhaps a prophecy, that the Day of the Lord had already started, and THEY WERE STILL HERE. It should be obvious then, that Paul had taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath (or the Day of His wrath.)

Key points people miss:
Verses 6 through 8 make it very clear that there was some POWER restraining the revealing of the man of sin, preventing his revealing until the proper time. And that at some point that power of restraining would be "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin would be revealed.

Next, in verse 3b we find the man of sin has been revealed for it is written, "be revealed" or "is revealed." Since Paul wrote that the only possible way he could be revealed is if the power restraining had been "taken out of the way" then logic demands that this "taking out of the way MUST have happened in verse 3a so that he was then revealed in 3b.

The only word that could mean something "taken out of the way" is to consider "apostasia" as some kind of departing or something "taken out of the way."
The only problem with that is you're injecting what you think they were troubled about.

The verses say that Jesus will not return until after the apostasy and man of sin which means the church will be present when the anti-Christ is there. The church will be present for the great tribulation.

Why? Because the rapture doesn't happen until after Jesus returns. Matthew 24 (immediately after the tribulation of those days)

The verses were talking about say they were troubled that the apostasy and man of sin had arrived because they clearly understood that would have meant the great tribulation is happening.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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cv5

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What if Paul meant by the "apostasia" the departing of the church?

Early translations:

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What comes first is the "departing." It seems that the Holy Spirit, working through the church, is the restraining power.
Amen brother.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Every relevant Scripture unfailingly says the same thing. Deliverance from THE TIME AND PLACE of wrath (the EARTHLY seven year tribulation sequence).
  1. to draw to one's self, to rescue, to deliver
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4506&t=NKJV
 

cv5

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The only problem with that is you're injecting what you think they were troubled about.

The verses say that Jesus will not return until after the apostasy and man of sin which means the church will be present when the anti-Christ is there. The church will be present for the great tribulation.

Why? Because the rapture doesn't happen until after Jesus returns. Matthew 24 (immediately after the tribulation of those days)

The verses were talking about say they were troubled that the apostasy and man of sin had arrived because they clearly understood that would have meant the great tribulation is happening.
Your implacable demands that I should go through the time of tribulation are only going to be met with repudiation as far as I'm concerned.
 

Truth7t7

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So you are saying that the Thessalonians are "shaken" and "troubled" because they thought that TDOTL was "available"? Absolute hogwash.

Did you forget about v.1? Paul is clearing up the matter of "our gathering to Him". The Thessalonians thought they had missed this "gathering". In terms of time the event had already passed. Paul says no......the event has not passed (in terms of time) it is yet future (in terms of time).

So simple so straightforward so obvious. Honestly I find the failure of supposed Christians to comprehend these simple passages to be extremely disturbing and concerning.
I find it disturbing that you disregard the clear words of God below in rebellion, as you falsely teach a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven is seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Strong's G646 - apostasia - 'feminine of the same as G647 [apostasion]'

[so then...]

Strong's G647 - apostasion [masculine] - 'Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of aphistemi [*G868]; properly, something separative...'




[Strong's *G868 - 'From apo and histemi; to remove ]


Not brain surgery, people. ;)
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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What if Paul meant by the "apostasia" the departing of the church?

Early translations:

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What comes first is the "departing." It seems that the Holy Spirit, working through the church, is the restraining power.
(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Ran out of EDIT time... should read:

"Strong's G647 - apostasion [neuter]..." (rather than "masculine")
 

GaryA

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I believe you guys are not fully understanding my explanation.

I will see about explaining it further later tonight when I have more time.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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What if Paul meant by the "apostasia" the departing of the church?

Early translations:

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What comes first is the "departing." It seems that the Holy Spirit, working through the church, is the restraining power.
He used the word apostasia in the verses you cited with "departure." It literally means a defection from a truth once held.

He's definitely talking about Christians becoming apostates via abandonment of the faith or turning aside to myths or fables. It has nothing to do with the rapture.

1 Timothy 4:1 recognizes and validates the prophecy of some departing from the faith in latter days;

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Furthermore, the scripture has to mesh because we're under the firmly-held belief it is the divinely-inspired and inerrant word of God.

Therefore there cannot be contradictions to scripture: believing the church departs in a rapture before the apostasy of the church and man of sin is revealed contradicts the verse in question and the whole body of scriptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 says that immediately after the tribulation of those days He will return with His angels to gather His elect. Case closed. The rapture has always been post-tribulation.
 

Truth7t7

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No that isn't what it says. I think there comes a point where we can't discuss something if we aren't speaking the same language.

I have read your posts and it definitely was not a convincing explanation because the text plainly contradicts what you're saying they say.

I don't think you could convince anyone that what they are reading means something entirely different than what it says but you sure did try.
Watermark has intentionally given disregard to the question below, posted 3 times, of course this poster also falsely believes and teaches a pre-trib rapture is seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means


Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?