50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Runningman · Apr 22, 2021

Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

Runningman said:

I've posted on that verse many times, and I propose that this verse is not saying what you *think* it is saying.

Consider carefully [and READ CAREFULLY] the following post I made back in January, on Hebrews 9:28:

Post #607 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4455288

[excerpt] - "ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection!

"

[more AT LINK to that post]

Runningman · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I've posted on that verse many times, and I propose that this verse is not saying what you *think* it is saying.

Consider carefully [and READ CAREFULLY] the following post I made back in January, on Hebrews 9:28:

Post #607 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4455288

[excerpt] - "ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection!

"

[more AT LINK to that post]

Oh, you think Hebrews 9:28 refers to the resurrection as the second coming of Christ?

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

Runningman said:

That is NOT AT ALL what I said in that post.

"READ CAREFULLY" (the content of that post), I suggested.

You MISSED the point, there.

(my guess is that you didn't even read AT ALL the post I had supplied... or you wouldn't be saying such a thing

)

____________

Again (re: the other, separate request I'd made), please provide a TEXT of Scripture that states "SECOND advent" or SECOND coming".

Runningman · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I read it but it's hard to follow.

So you think it's referring to Jesus coming a second time post-ascension? If yes, then that's what I think too.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

Runningman said:

Well, for one thing... in each of those TEN REFERENCES (used re: Jesus) to the word "APPEAR [passive - G3708]" (as is used in Heb9:28)...

... ALL TEN of them refer to what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, what we commonly call His "FIRST ADVENT"<--NONE of them refer to that)... and IN NONE OF THOSE passages does it refer to anything like "OPENLY MANIFEST TO/BEFORE ALL," but rather, ONLY to those carefully chosen witnesses... (Acts 10:41)...

Therefore, your verse (Heb9:28) is not at all convincing to me, as to the point *you* are making [/making it say]...

You will have to try harder than that, in order to persuade me to view things as you do. = )

I'm willing to be persuaded (provided "Scripture itself" says such a thing

).

Runningman · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

After the Gospels the only time Christ returns with salvation is at His second advent. Therefore, I believe Hebrews 9:28 stays consistent with the whole of scripture and maintains that when Christ returns it will be salvation: the rapture for this who are alive and the first resurrection for the dead.

1 Cor. 15:23
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Cor. 15:51-53
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

lamad said:

OK, I'll bite.

If the rapture is pre-trib, please quote the verse that shows that Jesus takes the resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

That would solve the whole issue.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

Runningman said:

Yes. I think it's because of their particular way they read the Bible.

So far I've witnessed mostly dispensationalism and some dual covenant theology in this thread. Because of this they'll sometimes reject plain text verses that contradict pre-trib ideas by twisting scripture to make it apply to a different dispensation (time period). For example, one person kept saying "church age" and then failed to show scripture for what the church age is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They almost always have to invent a 3rd or even sometimes a 4th advent of Christ because the pre-trib is very hard to wrap up neatly without it. Even when they do this they find it impossible to prove. That's why despite your numerous requests for verses they'll never give you one because it doesn't exist.

I loved your "shoulder shrug" emoji. You're obviously more creative than I.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I agree, it happens. = )

re:

... however, I must admit, you've accomplished something truly extraordinary:

in that post of yours, Post #906

( https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4536840 "[#906] FreeGrace2 said: 'But, sinc DW denies the reality of the Millennium in Rev 20, where 1,000 years is mentioned 5 times, with reference to ending and "are over", there's no use in trying to help him with any facts. His mind appears to be made up already, but without facts'"),

...you've succeeded in getting an Amillennianlist to side with you against someone supposedly [according to your mixed-up post] ON HIS *OWN* SIDE OF THE DEBATE (Amill)... "Runningman" who gave your incorrect post (about my supposedly being Amill) a hearty "thumbsup".

Stunningly hilarious! LOL

How does this even happen?!

(unless people aren't really READING each others' posts, or else don't grasp their own position on the Subject!

)

[not even the first time in this thread that such a thing has taken place, either!

]

Well, thanks.....I guess.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Kinda the same thing with Calvinists and Arminians with their peculiar doctrines.

VCO said:

I agree!

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

^ Well, that makes THREE of us (at least) that agree on that "Calvinism & Arminianism" point.

[that neither are correct]

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?

Jesus came to earth to be born of a virgin, live a sinless life and die on the cross for humanity.

Jesus comes AGAIN (that would be twice, for those who are counting) as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to "rule the nations with an iron scepter" for 1,000 years, before the eternal state on the NE where the NJ will be located.

I don't find any text that indicates that Jesus comes "again and again". Just "again".

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:
...and you've not yet provided a TEXT stating "SECOND advent".

If there is such a text, then please supply it.

Runningman said:

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Am I right in guessing that you do not believe "harpazo / rapture / SNATCH / caught-up /-away" actually refers to any movement of us, like, TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR," right? Since in past posts you said you believe "IN THE AIR" (re: Christ) actually meant "TO THE EARTH"... and in another post, you simply EQUATED that word (harpazo / SNATCH) to "our change [which you seemed to call 'resurrection']". Tell me how I'm perceiving your posts wrongly... which I *may* be...

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

Runningman said:
Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Wow, when people get desperate. I guess words only mean what the individual wants it to mean.

However, the words "second time" cannot mean anything other than twice.

When one finally wades through all the bold word, italicized words, etc, etc, etc, it was impossible to figure out your point.

It doesn't take a Greek scholar to understand what "second time" means. Anyone with a grade school education knows that.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

lol, lol. Please stop, my stomach aches!!

I read all of the post. Just see my remarks at 1116.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, wrong. I obviously believe that living believers on earth when Jesus returns at the SECOND advent will be gathered up "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, with all the dead saints that came with Him.

Why would you assume I don't believe in actual movement? Matt 24, 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52 are clear.

Since in past posts you said you believe "IN THE AIR" (re: Christ) actually meant "TO THE EARTH".[/quot]
Well, you misread what I said. The words "in the air" is in the context of coming to earth from heaven. When Jesus gets to the earth's atmosphere, with all the dead saints, He gathers up all the living believers. Real simple.

I was real clear way back then. At the same event (Second advent), Jesus resurrects the bodies of the dead saints who came with Him and changes all the living believer's bodies, so that EVERYONE'S bodies are "like His".

Glad to clarify. I don't like being misunderstood any more than anyone else.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

...says the man who is notorious for leaving words and whole phrases out of a verse

What I'd said in that LINKed post was:

"the FIRST time He appeared "apart from sin" [was] FOLLOWING His finished CROSS-work [i.e. after His resurrection!]--though it was numerous appearances, all told), He will do THIS "a second time... [again [APPEAR-G3807 (passive)] apart-from-sin]"

...and again, NOT speaking of the "OPENLY MANIFEST BEFORE ALL" (but, like the FIRST time He did was ONLY TO carefully chosen WITNESSES, Acts 10:41), "[SHALL APPEAR] UNTO them that look for Him"

(this could be referring "the 144,000" [of whom Paul is a "TYPE"], or to a wider audience... but I don't think it necessarily [and likely DOES NOT] refer to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time, which would occur even prior TO THAT, meaning, prior to "the 144,000" thing [thus ("re: our Rapture" event) corresponding to an even EARLIER point-in-time which ALSO FOLLOWED His resurrection... which I went into in another post, so won't go into here--but just to say, the PATTERN HOLDS TRUE

])

The "SECOND TIME" in relation to what? (what does the TEXT say?)

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 22, 2021

What you're suggesting it says, is: "a SECOND TIME will appear. [FULL-STOP]"...

implying (in your mind), as in contrast to His "FIRST ADVENT" (i.e. born and then went to the Cross, spans of time [BETWEEN these]).

[I'm saying, it doesn't say that]

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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