Scott:
i guess it's your assertion that an hypothetical man who:
asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?
what if he now says he was never saved at all? can we trust anything he says based on his previous professions for nearly 2 decades?
what would your assessment of that hypothetical man's actual condition, past and present be?
was he deliberately lying to himself and others about being saved and walking in righteousness for 17 years, while making a conscious free-will choice to proceed to commit horrendous crimes against God Almighty while yet claiming to have fellowship with Him?
how does that man actually get saved?
how can he tell he is saved, if he thought he was for so long previously?
can we get this important discussion to take some real-life shape?
thanks Scott.
zone
Not at all.
That problem is only an issue when one views salvation in an abstract manner where redemption is disconnected from the actual present conscious state of the redeemed person. When one views salvation in this manner there is no possible way to tell if one is saved or not because there is no actual "standard of measure" in the present walk in regards to what one has been actually saved from. This is because salvation is only in the context of being "saved from the PUNISHMENT due."
If, on the other hand, salvation is viewed as a present and active condition of actually being set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust and the bondage it induced, as well as having been reconciled to God and pardoned for previous rebellion then it is clearly evident that one can be "saved" at one time and not "saved" later on.
A good analogy is Israel in bondage to the Egyptians. When they were delivered into the wilderness were they still in bondage in Egypt? Of course not.
Is a Christian who is delivered from the bondage of sin wrought through the corruption of lust are they still in bondage to sin? There is no possible way they can be otherwise "deliverance" has no real meaning.
You see when salvation is viewed in an abstract manner the "deliverance" is merely a mental abstraction instead of a present reality. This is why so many Christian self help books are aimed at "discovering who you are in Christ." Do a Google search on the phrase "who you are in Christ" and you will see what I mean.
The modern concept of salvation if put into the context of Israel in Egypt would have Israel having been set free while they still remained in slavery. Think about that, isn't that exactly how salvation is generally presented? When anyone tries to teach that Israel is actually, in reality, delivered from their bondage it is deemed heresy to most people. Very few seem to be able to conceive the notion that a Christian can truly be delivered from the bondage of sin. The root of the issue is the sin nature teaching which mandates that the bondage in this life never stops, hence the Romans 7 wretch.
Let's take a closer look at the example you presented...
asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?
So we have a man who for 17 years goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, (and walks in it too I assume) and then falls into the group of a particular sin in year 18.
Was this man never saved at all? Or could this man be described as this...
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
I think Peter answers that question very clearly. One can indeed escape the corruption in the world through lust, can indeed cease from yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God, can indeed become a partaker of the Holy Spirit and can indeed be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ AND THEN fall back into the bondage of sin.
This is why a Christian must do this...
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
This is a spiritual war and it is the souls of men that are at stake.
So how can one know if they are saved? Well the Bible says things like this...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
We know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. Therefore if we are violating His commandments and walking our own way then we can be sure we don't know Him. The love of God is perfected in those who "keep" His word.
Here is another very important passage which quite simply speaks for itself.
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Here is another key passage...
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and
every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
There is no possible way one can be abiding in Jesus Christ and in rebellion to Him at the same time. Serving two masters is absolutely impossible, the scriptures so clearly testify against it.
This is why it is folly to disconnect the walk in the flesh from the walk in the Spirit. Salvation is a present active state of abiding in Jesus Christ where one is overcoming the things of the world.
Any individual who is still in rebellion to God is not abiding in Christ and is not saved. They may have bought into a deceptive theology which teaches them otherwise but these people need to dig deep into the Scriptures for themselves and BELIEVE what they teach. If they don't they will perish in their rebellion.
I hope this helps.