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A
I apologize Redtent, I'm feeling a little testy today.
There just seems so much misunderstanding floating around it annoys me at times.
I don't think all 613 commandments are from God. As I read some of them and the scriptures they get them from, you will notice some are the SAME verse, yet people draw out five or six DIFFERENT commandments from that same verse.
am I the only one who thinks that is kind of ridiculous and trying to make God's laws more complicated and harder to understand than needed?
Jesus preached to the poor and the uneducated and spoke to them in a manner that THEY could understand.
I KNOW God wants us to the same.
SO many people act like the OT is so confusing, but I wonder "Is it really that hard?"
I always wonder why people don't see God telling people about the New covenant He wants them to be a part of even in the OT.
its like people totally miss the point.
why can't we just sit and read the BIble and see what message God is trying to tell us?
Instead we are like spoiled little kids interrupting the storyteller every five minutes to ask questions or insert our own stories and problems so that those who stop to listen get confused about the real story because they only get to hear it in bits and pieces.
oh well, i guess I'll clean my house now.
There just seems so much misunderstanding floating around it annoys me at times.
I don't think all 613 commandments are from God. As I read some of them and the scriptures they get them from, you will notice some are the SAME verse, yet people draw out five or six DIFFERENT commandments from that same verse.
am I the only one who thinks that is kind of ridiculous and trying to make God's laws more complicated and harder to understand than needed?
Jesus preached to the poor and the uneducated and spoke to them in a manner that THEY could understand.
I KNOW God wants us to the same.
SO many people act like the OT is so confusing, but I wonder "Is it really that hard?"
I always wonder why people don't see God telling people about the New covenant He wants them to be a part of even in the OT.
its like people totally miss the point.
why can't we just sit and read the BIble and see what message God is trying to tell us?
Instead we are like spoiled little kids interrupting the storyteller every five minutes to ask questions or insert our own stories and problems so that those who stop to listen get confused about the real story because they only get to hear it in bits and pieces.
oh well, i guess I'll clean my house now.
I'm not sure what you mean, but I AM sure scripture is scripture from God!
Isn't it the absolute truth, the gospel is so simple that a little child sometimes gets is better than the intellectuals, even.
Paul is NOT simple. Even scripture tells us so. I once spent a good 100 hours studying to understand Him. I knew all scripture was truth, and it took me that long to understand, and I used New, Old, and also histories of the times before God's words came clear to me. I think that Christians who can pull grace, law, love, etc. together so all scripture is absolute truth without hard work is absolutely brilliant and saintly.
Isn't it the absolute truth, the gospel is so simple that a little child sometimes gets is better than the intellectuals, even.
Paul is NOT simple. Even scripture tells us so. I once spent a good 100 hours studying to understand Him. I knew all scripture was truth, and it took me that long to understand, and I used New, Old, and also histories of the times before God's words came clear to me. I think that Christians who can pull grace, law, love, etc. together so all scripture is absolute truth without hard work is absolutely brilliant and saintly.
A
this commandment is based upon good gardening techniques because it allows the plants to establish itself for the first three years. I wonder if it has symbolic meaning: 3 years of learning before a new disciples bear fruit.
Saul who later become Paul learned in the desert for three years before beginning his ministry.
Leviticus 19
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And when you come into the land and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count the fruit of them as inedible and forbidden to you for three years; it shall not be eaten.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]In the fourth year all their fruit shall be holy for giving praise to the Lord.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But in the fifth year you may eat of the fruit [of the trees], that their produce may enrich you; I am the Lord your God.
Saul who later become Paul learned in the desert for three years before beginning his ministry.
Leviticus 19
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And when you come into the land and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count the fruit of them as inedible and forbidden to you for three years; it shall not be eaten.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]In the fourth year all their fruit shall be holy for giving praise to the Lord.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But in the fifth year you may eat of the fruit [of the trees], that their produce may enrich you; I am the Lord your God.
And 'love' is a fruit of the Spirit, i.e. GOD produced, not a work of the flesh , i.e. our production.
If it's a commandment WE kept, then WE have room for boasting, but if it's fruit produced by the LIFE of GOD in us (Christ in us, Holy Spirit in us) then all glory to HIM and FREEDOM to serve Him out of a thankful heart .
If it's a commandment WE kept, then WE have room for boasting, but if it's fruit produced by the LIFE of GOD in us (Christ in us, Holy Spirit in us) then all glory to HIM and FREEDOM to serve Him out of a thankful heart .
Paul is crystal clear. And for those who are Gentile he should be especially studied since he was 'the' Apostle to the gentiles. It is our flesh that muddies the waters of God's pure grace in Christ by being swayed back under the law (the flesh then has room for boasting) ala Little Jack Horner.
Galatians the antidote.
Galatians the antidote.
Maybe you are starting to understand...
1 Timothy 1:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
The law was made for the lawless and disobedient.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
When you were lawless and disobedient, even though you thought you obeyed the law by your carnal mind, the law condemned you in your sin. This causes you to either continue to walk in the dark and hide from the Lord or it causes you to cry out to your Saviour for His Help.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Hebrews 12:1-2
[SUP]1[/SUP]Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset you. How?
Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP] 28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness. The Lord Jesus has made us righteous by His Work.
If you go back to the Law to obey it in your own power you are turning away from Christ and making yourself a transgressor, un-righteous. If you turn away from Christ to establish your own work by the law you are a debtor to do all of it, perfectly. You are back under the ministry of condemnation and death.
There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Sin shall not have dominion over you because you are under grace.
1 Timothy 1:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
The law was made for the lawless and disobedient.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
When you were lawless and disobedient, even though you thought you obeyed the law by your carnal mind, the law condemned you in your sin. This causes you to either continue to walk in the dark and hide from the Lord or it causes you to cry out to your Saviour for His Help.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Hebrews 12:1-2
[SUP]1[/SUP]Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset you. How?
Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP] 28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness. The Lord Jesus has made us righteous by His Work.
If you go back to the Law to obey it in your own power you are turning away from Christ and making yourself a transgressor, un-righteous. If you turn away from Christ to establish your own work by the law you are a debtor to do all of it, perfectly. You are back under the ministry of condemnation and death.
There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Sin shall not have dominion over you because you are under grace.
It seems those against the law are seeking the law more than those who do the law by the new nature afforded by the Holy Spirit. The law for those who live in grace is only a reminder of the words given by our Father, Yahweh, or if you prefer, Jesus, to study and gain wisdom in teaching what is the best way and action in certain given instances, but those who have received Yeshua know this by nature. For why does it teach how "aforetime the believers were disobedient," if the laws did not still account for a persons actions in part. Of course it goes on to say it is our conscience that is clear in the sight of God, but our nature has become obedient. Obey the Father, good children DO this.
1Pe 3:18
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19
in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20
that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
1Pe 3:21
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 3:22
who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 3:18
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19
in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20
that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
1Pe 3:21
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 3:22
who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Getting back to the your intent here, the question is are there any we should not keep...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
OK, now there are pretty much three types of Laws in the OT. The Ten Commandments are the foundation...
1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
Now why were the Ten Commandments inside the Ark?
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Moses made everything exactly like the pattern God showed to him. Why? Because the Tabernacle was an exact replica of the Throne in heaven...
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Ark in heaven...
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
What do you suppose is in the Ark in heaven? Three guesses but the first two do not count. The Ten Commandments are not the Law God lives by, they simply reflect God's character. If you were to put God's character into words, there is no better description than the Ten Commandments. They are eternal.
There are Laws that are statutes. These are how the Ten Commandments (the Law of love, love toward God, first four, love toward neighbor, last six) apply in various applications. Some examples...
Exo 22:6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
You are responsible for any loss you cause another to incur. (Love your neighbor)
Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Again, love your neighbor.
OK and finally there are what are termed ceremonial Laws. These are the Laws that God established for the propr way to worship God and many of them are shadows of the New Covenant. The sacrificial Laws for sin point to Jesus Christ, they are the teacher, the schoolmaster to finally culminate in the perfect sacrifice of Christ...
Now do we offer sacrifice today? We claim the sacrifice of Christ for sin, the Law of sacrifices was filled full by Christ's perfect sacrifice...
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The crux of the matter is how do we know how to apply the Laws.
Christ spelled out how to apply the Ten Commandments...
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And then He continues to show the Spiritual aspects of the Law...
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
We not only do not kill, we are not to be angry with our brother. In fact, don't even look at your brother with disdain...
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
The Statutes are how we conduct our lives...
Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.
Put a handrail around your deck on your house so that no one falls off but it can go much deeper than that. There are deeper applications than just the surface...
Deu 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Paul understood the depth of the Law and instead of discounting it, he applied it in the New Covenant method it should be applied.
Then there are the sacrificial Laws. We go to Christ when we sin...
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Here is also an example of an offering for sin. This is the man after God's own heart...
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
1Ch 21:17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.
1Ch 21:18 Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:19 And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the LORD.
1Ch 21:20 And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat.
1Ch 21:21 And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.
1Ch 21:22 Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people.
1Ch 21:23 And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all.
1Ch 21:24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost.
1Ch 21:25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.
David not only went to God for forgiveness, but he also offered a sacrifice for his sin. He paid a price for it. is it wrong today to offer an offering when we do wrong? What most want is to sin, ask Christ to pay the price and then get off scot free with no cost to ourselves. It doesn't work that way. There is quite often a physical price for sin...
2Sa 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
2Sa 12:3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
2Sa 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
2Sa 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
2Sa 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
David's sin was forgiven and we read about that in Psalm 51, but there still was a penalty to be paid. He did not lose his salvation, but there was punishment in this life for his sin. Notice David's reaction...
2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psa 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Psa 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
The offerings he made were and indicator of his heart. He was genuinely sorry to have sinned and genuinely repented. This is why David was called a man after God's own heart and why he will be king of all Israel in the resurrection...
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
OK, now there are pretty much three types of Laws in the OT. The Ten Commandments are the foundation...
1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
Now why were the Ten Commandments inside the Ark?
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Moses made everything exactly like the pattern God showed to him. Why? Because the Tabernacle was an exact replica of the Throne in heaven...
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is an Ark in heaven...
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
What do you suppose is in the Ark in heaven? Three guesses but the first two do not count. The Ten Commandments are not the Law God lives by, they simply reflect God's character. If you were to put God's character into words, there is no better description than the Ten Commandments. They are eternal.
There are Laws that are statutes. These are how the Ten Commandments (the Law of love, love toward God, first four, love toward neighbor, last six) apply in various applications. Some examples...
Exo 22:6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
You are responsible for any loss you cause another to incur. (Love your neighbor)
Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Again, love your neighbor.
OK and finally there are what are termed ceremonial Laws. These are the Laws that God established for the propr way to worship God and many of them are shadows of the New Covenant. The sacrificial Laws for sin point to Jesus Christ, they are the teacher, the schoolmaster to finally culminate in the perfect sacrifice of Christ...
Now do we offer sacrifice today? We claim the sacrifice of Christ for sin, the Law of sacrifices was filled full by Christ's perfect sacrifice...
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The crux of the matter is how do we know how to apply the Laws.
Christ spelled out how to apply the Ten Commandments...
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And then He continues to show the Spiritual aspects of the Law...
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
We not only do not kill, we are not to be angry with our brother. In fact, don't even look at your brother with disdain...
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
The Statutes are how we conduct our lives...
Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.
Put a handrail around your deck on your house so that no one falls off but it can go much deeper than that. There are deeper applications than just the surface...
Deu 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Paul understood the depth of the Law and instead of discounting it, he applied it in the New Covenant method it should be applied.
Then there are the sacrificial Laws. We go to Christ when we sin...
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Here is also an example of an offering for sin. This is the man after God's own heart...
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
1Ch 21:17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.
1Ch 21:18 Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:19 And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the LORD.
1Ch 21:20 And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat.
1Ch 21:21 And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.
1Ch 21:22 Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people.
1Ch 21:23 And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all.
1Ch 21:24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost.
1Ch 21:25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.
David not only went to God for forgiveness, but he also offered a sacrifice for his sin. He paid a price for it. is it wrong today to offer an offering when we do wrong? What most want is to sin, ask Christ to pay the price and then get off scot free with no cost to ourselves. It doesn't work that way. There is quite often a physical price for sin...
2Sa 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
2Sa 12:3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
2Sa 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
2Sa 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
2Sa 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
David's sin was forgiven and we read about that in Psalm 51, but there still was a penalty to be paid. He did not lose his salvation, but there was punishment in this life for his sin. Notice David's reaction...
2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psa 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Psa 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
The offerings he made were and indicator of his heart. He was genuinely sorry to have sinned and genuinely repented. This is why David was called a man after God's own heart and why he will be king of all Israel in the resurrection...
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
A
well then someone has been stealing from the Ark, because there is suppose to be a bowl of manna and Aaron's staff as well in there too.....
Hebrews 8:
[h=3]Hebrews 9:3-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, [SUP]4 [/SUP]which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
I've deleted the words to make for easier reading of what you are saying but kept the reference..
its easy if you know who the Temple is........Revelation 21: 22
[h=3][/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
but if you want to be exact then it is believed that God sits upon the Mercy seat or above the cherubim's wings, therefore the ark would represent what is under God's throne.
Revelation 6
[h=3][/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
I am interested to see what your answer is.....
no they don't represent God's character. You can find verses in Job or psalms that show a better representation of God's character. I believe the 10 commandments represent examples of how God wants us to show the world the love He has placed in our hearts.
People often misuse the 10 commandments to condemn others because they SEE them sinning or they use them to beat themselves over the head because they are unable to keep them perfectly all the time or they deceive themselves into ignoring when they sin and instead of repenting and asking God for help, they believe themselves righteous according to the law.
the 10 commandments and all these other commandments are examples or explanations of HOW you can go about doing that. they are reminders to think of God every day and love Him and those around you. God knows we get tempted to be selfish, greedy, prideful and many other negative emotions. He reminds us that we are no better than the rest of the world. The only thing keeping us like becoming Sodom and Gomorrah is not that we are more righteous but that God keeps a remnant among us and gives us His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us. otherwise if we were left on our own without God's Light, we would self destruct. Therefore when we see a sinner struggling, we should not be prideful and think they should just
"quit" or "choose" but we should pray for them that God might change their hearts and open their eyes to the lies and bondage they are in from their sinful behavior and selfish mindsets.
I seem to have missed your first type of law or maybe you are saying some laws (like the 10 commandment) express God's character and I didn't count that because I didn't agree with your statement.....
yes.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise.
that is the practical concern most people studying the Bible should have: how we apply what we learn in our every day lives.......
Paul showed what the symbols actually meant and used every opportunity to remind people to look to Jesus for their salvation.
those verses have always been among my favorite to read over and over again.
i wonder where this is going to go......sidenote Did you notice WHAT David's sin was and who he listened to?
[h=3]1 Chronicles 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.[/h]
we use this verse whenever someone has lost a child to remind them that since we know David is in Heaven with God then newborns who die so early in life are with Him too because David tells us that he will go and join him.
i agree with this part
but not with this statement. there is only ONE king and He is Jesus, the root of David.
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
uh oh, i think we might have a disagreement about what those verses mean and what is being revealed in the book of Revelation as well.....but that is probably a whole other topic of discussion and I've found spending too much time on what people believe to be in the future to be counterproductive to actually getting anything done in the present.
a very interesting and informative post. thanks.
Hebrews 8:
[h=3]Hebrews 9:3-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, [SUP]4 [/SUP]which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
I've deleted the words to make for easier reading of what you are saying but kept the reference..
its easy if you know who the Temple is........Revelation 21: 22
[h=3][/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
but if you want to be exact then it is believed that God sits upon the Mercy seat or above the cherubim's wings, therefore the ark would represent what is under God's throne.
Revelation 6
[h=3][/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
I am interested to see what your answer is.....
no they don't represent God's character. You can find verses in Job or psalms that show a better representation of God's character. I believe the 10 commandments represent examples of how God wants us to show the world the love He has placed in our hearts.
People often misuse the 10 commandments to condemn others because they SEE them sinning or they use them to beat themselves over the head because they are unable to keep them perfectly all the time or they deceive themselves into ignoring when they sin and instead of repenting and asking God for help, they believe themselves righteous according to the law.
the 10 commandments and all these other commandments are examples or explanations of HOW you can go about doing that. they are reminders to think of God every day and love Him and those around you. God knows we get tempted to be selfish, greedy, prideful and many other negative emotions. He reminds us that we are no better than the rest of the world. The only thing keeping us like becoming Sodom and Gomorrah is not that we are more righteous but that God keeps a remnant among us and gives us His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us. otherwise if we were left on our own without God's Light, we would self destruct. Therefore when we see a sinner struggling, we should not be prideful and think they should just
"quit" or "choose" but we should pray for them that God might change their hearts and open their eyes to the lies and bondage they are in from their sinful behavior and selfish mindsets.
I seem to have missed your first type of law or maybe you are saying some laws (like the 10 commandment) express God's character and I didn't count that because I didn't agree with your statement.....
yes.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise.
that is the practical concern most people studying the Bible should have: how we apply what we learn in our every day lives.......
Paul showed what the symbols actually meant and used every opportunity to remind people to look to Jesus for their salvation.
those verses have always been among my favorite to read over and over again.
i wonder where this is going to go......sidenote Did you notice WHAT David's sin was and who he listened to?
[h=3]1 Chronicles 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.[/h]
we use this verse whenever someone has lost a child to remind them that since we know David is in Heaven with God then newborns who die so early in life are with Him too because David tells us that he will go and join him.
i agree with this part
but not with this statement. there is only ONE king and He is Jesus, the root of David.
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
uh oh, i think we might have a disagreement about what those verses mean and what is being revealed in the book of Revelation as well.....but that is probably a whole other topic of discussion and I've found spending too much time on what people believe to be in the future to be counterproductive to actually getting anything done in the present.
a very interesting and informative post. thanks.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Sin shall not have dominion over you. Why? Because you are under grace. If you turn back to the law sin has dominion over you again. Why? Because that is the purpose of the law, to point out sin.
Romans 7:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The law doesn't ever stop condemning you in your flesh. The law doesn't ever stop producing fruit unto death for your flesh and carnal mind.
There is only one way of escape. It isn't by pretending that you do a pretty good job. It isn't by comparing yourself to other sinners.
The Lord Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The ONLY Way. Look unto Him, the Author and Finisher of our Faith. Otherwise, who has bewitched you that you would look ANYWHERE else???
The Law doesn't produce fruit in your life. The Law doesn't provide any means of cleaning yourself up. The Law doesn't give you any blessing.
The Lord Jesus produces fruit in our life. The Lord Jesus cleanses us. The Lord Jesus blesses us.
Don't pretend that you have found wisdom past the Lord Jesus Christ. There is none.
Those against the law... The only ones against the law are the ones trying to obey it by their flesh, and they don't even know it.
Those who are not under the law, but under grace, those who walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, those who look to the Lord Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith, they are those who establish the Law.
Strange sort of wisdom isn't it? Strange like God providing His Own Sacrifice. Strange like God causing people to walk in His Statutes by putting His Holy Spirit in them.
His thoughts are far above our thoughts. His ways are far above our ways... LOL
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Sin shall not have dominion over you. Why? Because you are under grace. If you turn back to the law sin has dominion over you again. Why? Because that is the purpose of the law, to point out sin.
Romans 7:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The law doesn't ever stop condemning you in your flesh. The law doesn't ever stop producing fruit unto death for your flesh and carnal mind.
There is only one way of escape. It isn't by pretending that you do a pretty good job. It isn't by comparing yourself to other sinners.
The Lord Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The ONLY Way. Look unto Him, the Author and Finisher of our Faith. Otherwise, who has bewitched you that you would look ANYWHERE else???
The Law doesn't produce fruit in your life. The Law doesn't provide any means of cleaning yourself up. The Law doesn't give you any blessing.
The Lord Jesus produces fruit in our life. The Lord Jesus cleanses us. The Lord Jesus blesses us.
Don't pretend that you have found wisdom past the Lord Jesus Christ. There is none.
Those against the law... The only ones against the law are the ones trying to obey it by their flesh, and they don't even know it.
Those who are not under the law, but under grace, those who walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, those who look to the Lord Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith, they are those who establish the Law.
Strange sort of wisdom isn't it? Strange like God providing His Own Sacrifice. Strange like God causing people to walk in His Statutes by putting His Holy Spirit in them.
His thoughts are far above our thoughts. His ways are far above our ways... LOL
Why bring up another scripture not dealing with the issue responded to? If that is the way it is, we should post the Word from Genesis to the amen of Revelation.
There is no rejection of grace in observing the wisdom and teachings of the law. Now if one does not know the difference between those which pertain to love and those pertainng to what to touch or not touch or to eat or not to eat or how to act were there a temple, I am afraid the entire point is missed.
Once we live in grace we study the law for the wisdom and teaching contained there in. For instance, the law not to sow two kinds of seed in the same field. Here is wisdom. The Sower is Yeshua, the seed is the Word, any other seed is not the Word, therefore sowing two kinds of see in the field, the world, leads to confusion. There is only one seed, the Word of Yeshua.
Another similar teaching from the law, do not blend your materials in making garments. Taking this to the symbolic meaning, our deeds are our clothing. We do not want good cloth mixed with inferior cloth. We do not want good works mixed with evil, for this cannot please the Father.
There is so much more to the laws than simply do or don't, but if one will not see, this is plainly wrong. If one cannot see, then it is very sad indeed.
My previous post was a direct response to what was previously posted whereas what is posted with it since has no bearing on the reply. God bless you with understanding and a forgiving heart, in Yeshua, amen.
There is no rejection of grace in observing the wisdom and teachings of the law. Now if one does not know the difference between those which pertain to love and those pertainng to what to touch or not touch or to eat or not to eat or how to act were there a temple, I am afraid the entire point is missed.
Once we live in grace we study the law for the wisdom and teaching contained there in. For instance, the law not to sow two kinds of seed in the same field. Here is wisdom. The Sower is Yeshua, the seed is the Word, any other seed is not the Word, therefore sowing two kinds of see in the field, the world, leads to confusion. There is only one seed, the Word of Yeshua.
Another similar teaching from the law, do not blend your materials in making garments. Taking this to the symbolic meaning, our deeds are our clothing. We do not want good cloth mixed with inferior cloth. We do not want good works mixed with evil, for this cannot please the Father.
There is so much more to the laws than simply do or don't, but if one will not see, this is plainly wrong. If one cannot see, then it is very sad indeed.
My previous post was a direct response to what was previously posted whereas what is posted with it since has no bearing on the reply. God bless you with understanding and a forgiving heart, in Yeshua, amen.
Actually I just spoke on that a few weeks ago...
Let's see where those items were...
The manna...
Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.
Laid up BEFORE the Ark. It was actually displayed in front of the Ark.
Aaron's rod...
Num 17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.
Again, before the Ark, in front of it.
Just for good measure, where was the Book of the Law that Moses wrote at the behest of God?
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Not inside, but beside. Some scholars say in a pocket rack on the outside of the Ark (like a magazine rack only this was likely a scroll), others say in a separate chest beside the Ark on the table where the Ark sat. I can't say which, but in either case it was outside the Ark.
Now back to Hebrews 9...
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
The word for wherein here is...
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Thayer has it...
G1722
ἐν
en
Thayer Definition:
1) in, by, with etc.
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)
Citing in TDNT: 2:537, 233
Anyhoo, the word can mean multiple things but the one that satisfies all the requirements without a contradiction...
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Now just to show you that I am not pulling a fast one here, Paul used this word in another scripture...
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
The word for on here is...
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Now no one would contend that Jesus Christ is sitting INSIDE the right hand of God, and the meaning is very good here when we use the word on in the sense of at, near or by.
The only thing inside the Ark was the two tablets of the Ten Commandments, the pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded and even the Book of the Law, the Pentateuch, was outside but right beside the Ark.
Let's see where those items were...
The manna...
Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.
Laid up BEFORE the Ark. It was actually displayed in front of the Ark.
Aaron's rod...
Num 17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.
Again, before the Ark, in front of it.
Just for good measure, where was the Book of the Law that Moses wrote at the behest of God?
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Not inside, but beside. Some scholars say in a pocket rack on the outside of the Ark (like a magazine rack only this was likely a scroll), others say in a separate chest beside the Ark on the table where the Ark sat. I can't say which, but in either case it was outside the Ark.
Now back to Hebrews 9...
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
The word for wherein here is...
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Thayer has it...
G1722
ἐν
en
Thayer Definition:
1) in, by, with etc.
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)
Citing in TDNT: 2:537, 233
Anyhoo, the word can mean multiple things but the one that satisfies all the requirements without a contradiction...
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Now just to show you that I am not pulling a fast one here, Paul used this word in another scripture...
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
The word for on here is...
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Now no one would contend that Jesus Christ is sitting INSIDE the right hand of God, and the meaning is very good here when we use the word on in the sense of at, near or by.
The only thing inside the Ark was the two tablets of the Ten Commandments, the pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded and even the Book of the Law, the Pentateuch, was outside but right beside the Ark.
A
wow one gets so easily distracted.... ok, back to reading the list and checking the scriptures....
why is it so out of order?
why did they list these "commandments" out of order?
[h=3]Leviticus 19:14-18[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the Lord. [/quote]
now I want to know how they got number 34 and 35 from that verse?
there is no mention of Israelite at all in the Bible and nothing about fearing God in their manmade list of "commandments"
i think verse 16 can be better sumed up as DON"T GOSSIP about other people's lives. Don't condemn what you see of them in your hearts. Allow GOD to work and be the judge. If you do see sin, then don't write them off as an enemy but admonish them as a brother/sister in Christ.
see if you read this verse together it makes so much more sense: you must first check your heart to make sure you don't have hate there before rebuking them if you see them sin.
I bet you that a lot of people didn't know God told people this in the OT even before Jesus came.
follows NT advise to guard your tongue in James 3
why isn't this just one commandment:
if you see that your neighbor has an animal loaded down with things: offer to help unpack.
its part of the whole : love your neighbor as yourself. Help each other, don't just walk away when you see people in need. show God's love through your actions.
sometimes I think people make it more complicated than it needs to be....
why is it so out of order?
why did they list these "commandments" out of order?
[h=3]Leviticus 19:14-18[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the Lord. [/quote]
now I want to know how they got number 34 and 35 from that verse?
there is no mention of Israelite at all in the Bible and nothing about fearing God in their manmade list of "commandments"
i think verse 16 can be better sumed up as DON"T GOSSIP about other people's lives. Don't condemn what you see of them in your hearts. Allow GOD to work and be the judge. If you do see sin, then don't write them off as an enemy but admonish them as a brother/sister in Christ.
see if you read this verse together it makes so much more sense: you must first check your heart to make sure you don't have hate there before rebuking them if you see them sin.
I bet you that a lot of people didn't know God told people this in the OT even before Jesus came.
follows NT advise to guard your tongue in James 3
why isn't this just one commandment:
if you see that your neighbor has an animal loaded down with things: offer to help unpack.
its part of the whole : love your neighbor as yourself. Help each other, don't just walk away when you see people in need. show God's love through your actions.
sometimes I think people make it more complicated than it needs to be....