613

[lil-rush]

So I've been fed the whole schpeel that Jesus fulfilled convenent so we are no longer required to follow the 613 laws of Torah, and yadda yadda yadda, but I'm starting to believe mainstream Christianity may be confused.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. How is it that by fulfilling law then, we are no longer required to follow it at all? That line of logic(if it's logical at all) baffles me.

I've also been noticing scriptures that seem to point toward our keeping the law. Mark 1:44, Jesus tells a man to offer a cleansing offering. Why tell someone to follow law if Jesus is supposedly here to free us from the law?
Matthew 8:4, I'm not quite clear on this scripture but it seems to me that Jesus is once again promoting law.
Acts 10:14-15, people use this passage to say "see there, God is telling Peter to eat pork. that means we no longer follow the law" but is God really talking of pork or is he talking of gentiles? If he is talking of gentiles than the whole "no longer follow the law" is a moot point, because it would seem God is just tryng to say Jews need to accept gentiles into their lives and accept that God will allow them to be saved as well.
James 2: 10 and 12, kinda self-explanatory.

You know the bulk of scriptures speaking again following the law comes solely from Paul, not from Jesus. So who are we to trust, Paul or Jesus?

Anyways, I'm straddling the fence here on the following the laws thing, and if one is supposed to follow the laws I still think there are certain laws we need no longer follow. Mainly, sin offerings. The thing is, early Christians were mostly all Messianic. How is it that we have trailed so far from our roots? What is it that makes mainstream Christians right and Messianics wrong? How do we truly know that what we believe is the right belief?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Jesus fulfilled the law...and Christ was the end of the law , for those who believe (Rom 10:4).


Christians are no longer "under the law":

Gal 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer.
Can Paul be trusted?
Paul - apostle of Christ, was accepted as an apostle of Christ by Peter, John, James etc. (see Acts) So yes he can be trusted.

Re: Scriptures in Matthew, Mark, etc with Jesus.. at this time Jesus had not been crucified. The Temple was still standing at that time. The tearing of the temple curtain, and the destruction of the temple also signified that the old levitical system passed away. No one can fulfill the law completely even if they tried, not Jews today - there is no temple, there is no levitical priesthood system..etc..

The apostles led by the Holy Spirit gave no commandments that gentiles must follow the law:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

And we know that Peter did not keep the Levitical laws, as he "lived as a gentile":

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you, being a Jew, live as a Gentile, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to judaize?

 

[WhereToGo]

Jesus told people to follow the law because he hadn't yet died and ended us being slaves to the law, so at the time what he told people was correct.

 

[Baptistrw]

The law is impossible to keep, and it doesn't save us in any way. All it does is reveal our sinfulness. There are some laws of the 613 we do need to keep because they are reiterated in the NT, (not killing, or committing adultry, or stealing, etc) which are moral or civil, but the ceremonial laws of the Jews, Christ has fulfilled. As for your statement between Paul and Jesus, both. Boths words are recorded in Scripture and are authoritative. As for keeping the law, Peter's words.. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:10 (KJV)

Keeping the law is an impossible burden to bear even for the Jews, so Gentiles were freed from any obligation.

 

[lil-rush]

MahogonySnail, I

 

[tonga]

I am a non-Messianic Jew who has become interested in this phenomena of gentiles
wanting to keep Torah.

I think where they err is that Jews (including Jesus, of course) are born into the
covenant and required to keep it. This is not true for gentiles. If Jesus preached
that the law should be kept, it would be my presumption (perhaps in error because
I am not acquainted with the writings of the NT) that he was preaching this to the
Jews of his time, not the gentiles.

 

[Miah45]

So I've been fed the whole schpeel that Jesus fulfilled convenent so we are no longer required to follow the 613 laws of Torah, and yadda yadda yadda, but I'm starting to believe mainstream Christianity may be confused.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. How is it that by fulfilling law then, we are no longer required to follow it at all? That line of logic(if it's logical at all) baffles me.

I've also been noticing scriptures that seem to point toward our keeping the law. Mark 1:44, Jesus tells a man to offer a cleansing offering. Why tell someone to follow law if Jesus is supposedly here to free us from the law?
Matthew 8:4, I'm not quite clear on this scripture but it seems to me that Jesus is once again promoting law.
Acts 10:14-15, people use this passage to say "see there, God is telling Peter to eat pork. that means we no longer follow the law" but is God really talking of pork or is he talking of gentiles? If he is talking of gentiles than the whole "no longer follow the law" is a moot point, because it would seem God is just tryng to say Jews need to accept gentiles into their lives and accept that God will allow them to be saved as well.
James 2: 10 and 12, kinda self-explanatory.

Well I for one love the way you think! I sometimes wish more people had these questions like you.
You're right. God was saying to Peter accept Gentiles... not eat pork. Let's face it.. if God was now saying it's fine to munch on bacon.. wouldn't he have done it whilst with Jesus? I mean what better way to get to the heart of the matter than with the Master himself. And yet there is Peter crying out to God 'I have never eaten treif (non-kosher food)!' That makes 3 years of running around the Holy land with the Lord himself and not chowing down on a swine-burger once!

Jesus came to fulfill the law likewise the covenant. He came to bring it to its fullness. Like filling up a huge bathtub.. each covenant is like filling up the tub to a certain level with water, adding more meaning and depth. Did Jesus abolish the Law and it's standards? No.. He raised the bar... he added more 'water'. And satisfied it's requirements perfectly.

He made it impossible to keep the Law by ourself. The Answer? make available a radical previously unknown in-filling of the Spirit of God, that empowers us to keep the higher standard now set by Jesus. This 'holy takeover' will nudge, prompt and lead.. hurt, ache and cry inside.. empowering and enabling us to completely uphold the righteous life of keeping the 3 great commandments To LOVE GOD with all your heart, soul and strength, To Love your neighbor.. (As) To Love yourself.

As Paul (rabbi shaul) said.. all we have to do is say goodbye to the 'Paidagogos' The Old Teacher... and follow the new one...Yeshua (Jesus!) And the new one gives us a new nature to maintain a perfect unbroken fellowship...

what a GREAT DEAL!

As frustrating as it can get being a messianic Jew.. I wouldn't be so hard on the church. The Early church as you said was mainly Jewish and had the dilemma of what to do with the gentiles and what they were required to keep of the Law etc.. (See Council of Jerusalem Acts 15) Now after persecution and division centuries later, the church is predominantly Gentile wondering what to do with Jews (in some cases!)

But one things for sure..you can bet just as the one said 'He who begun a good work in you will bring it to completion' will also fix the Church too.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Miah when Jesus fulfilled the Law it means all of it right all 613 commands including the 10 commandments. Not aboloish but fulfill.

I don't agree with the way christians today separate the 10 commandments from the other 600 or so I thought you can't separate them like that and claim to keep to the Sabbath for example by having a day off on Saturday but ignoring what the other laws say about what can and cannot be done on the Sabbath (like lighting fires etc). Aren't the 10 commandments only a summary of the other laws but the 10 commandments are still Torah are they not and part of the old covenant. IF we as gentiles want to keep the 10 commandments we also are obliged to keep the other 600 or so as well are we not.

I'm also a bit confused about what it means to be a Jew or a Gentile. Is the line between who is a Jew and who is a Gentile so clear cut these days as it was in bible times ? Is a Jew by birth someone who is born into that religion or is a Jew by birth someone with blood DNA ancestry to one of the forefathers like Abraham or whoever. I think there is confusion about this in christianity some hold to blood line ancestry while others hold to whoever professes the religion and some perhaps both.

 

[Miah45]

Miah when Jesus fulfilled the Law it means all of it right all 613 commands including the 10 commandments. Not aboloish but fulfill.

Sure... 613 covers pretty much everything.. every aspect of life...but we miss that's what Jesus is trying to tell us about the new way.. How to walk perfectly in every circumstance..every sphere of life. Did we notice that Jesus hardly healed anyone the same way twice? It's because he was modeling relationship and partnership with the Father through communion with the Helper.. the Holy Spirit..We can't do that anymore through the Law, we can't walk perfectly either.. and the Law knew it which is why it had so many provisions for not keeping it..and let's not forget that the Mosaic Law is a temporary covenant. God never intended to leave us in that state.

I don't agree with the way christians today separate the 10 commandments from the other 600 or so I thought you can't separate them like that and claim to keep to the Sabbath for example by having a day off on Saturday but ignoring what the other laws say about what can and cannot be done on the Sabbath (like lighting fires etc).
Aren't the 10 commandments only a summary of the other laws but the 10 commandments are still Torah are they not and part of the old covenant. IF we as gentiles want to keep the 10 commandments we also are obliged to keep the other 600 or so as well are we not.

Sure if we're going to walk systematically... you might as well call everyone to keep all the commandments if we're not going to walk in a living moment by moment relationship.. But there's a big difference between living a life trying to be guided by biblical principles and 'Father what do I in this situation' If Jesus didn't do things the same everytime i.e. systematically... why would we? I for one won't be celebrating Passover purely because I'm Jewish and that's what we do... it's intercession, it's a lot of things... but I want to draw close to Jesus through it... he's 'all over that feast', and after celebrating it for so many years I want to connect to him in it in a fresh living way every time.

My point is why go back to the old 'manual-script' when you can talk to the Author? Take a book on the human body.. read it, study it.. you've learned all the principles on how it works. But boy is there a big difference when we meet a human being! We can choose the manual or the real person. That's the beauty of having a covenant of better promises.

I'm also a bit confused about what it means to be a Jew or a Gentile. Is the line between who is a Jew and who is a Gentile so clear cut these days as it was in bible times ? Is a Jew by birth someone who is born into that religion or is a Jew by birth someone with blood DNA ancestry to one of the forefathers like Abraham or whoever. I think there is confusion about this in christianity some hold to blood line ancestry while others hold to whoever professes the religion and some perhaps both.

Yeah the line is clear.. but I think confusion has come to the body, because we don't understand what it means to be either.. Being Jewish or Gentile is not a question so much of identity, for we all have rights to be heirs and sons of God.. it's a matter of calling or function. If you're going to talk to anyone about identity then being Jewish is something you are born as, as believers we know that Paul taught Jewish people have to be Jewish spiritually too.. they have to be God-praisers. We have to be true to the way God made us. He didn't make a mistake. He made you with a purpose. Anyone going after being Jewish to find identity is going to get really disappointed. Identity comes from heaven, and heaven celebrates you.

I hope I was clear.

 

[thefightinglamb]

There is a verse in scripture that says as the writers sidenote that after Jesus delcared that it is what comes out of the heart that makes someone unclean and not what goes into the mouth and what is expelled; thus saying Jesus delcared all foods unclean...

And also in Acts how Paul rebukes Cephas saying "you live like the gentiles and not like the Jews--how can you enforce this hyposcrosy on the jews?"

It is clear in the Jerusalem council that 'circumcision" is no longer required...

Circumcision and uncircumcision is of no account what matters is a new creation.

And also even in Jesus' day the jews sought to convert people so that adds confusion.

 

[Miah45]

There is a verse in scripture that says as the writers sidenote that after Jesus delcared that it is what comes out of the heart that makes someone unclean and not what goes into the mouth and what is expelled; thus saying Jesus delcared all foods unclean...

I will say this.. as I hear that verse thrown around a lot.. the context of what Jesus is addressing is found in verse 2 of Matthew 15.. things deemed 'unclean' were from the 'tradition of the elders' (ie rabbincal law). Skipping the hand washing ceremony in the elders eyes made things unclean. Jesus used this opportunity to point to a more weightier matter tailored for his audience. There wasn't any pork on the menu thats for sure!

And also in Acts how Paul rebukes Cephas saying "you live like the gentiles and not like the Jews--how can you enforce this hyposcrosy on the jews?"

You see I get that... I think you're referring to Galatians 2:14 right?? Isn't this Paul giving Peter a slap on the butt for acting like there wasn't a one new man...? I live Kosher..I abstain in faith as some eat in faith... but Love is the highest law.. Why go backwards to how things were or elevate things that aren't necessary to salvation as if they were.. I'm all for mining the past for gold, but don't ask me to live there!

It is clear in the Jerusalem council that 'circumcision" is no longer required..

right not necessary for salvation... they made many recommendations though about what not to eat or be involved in despite what many think that things we eat don't make us unclean.. (if you abstain from these things you will do well...) no threat of hell there... but it will be good for you not to eat certain things.

Circumcision and uncircumcision is of no account what matters is a new creation.
And also even in Jesus' day the jews sought to convert people so that adds confusion.

I guess that's where I agree but also disagree... both circumcised and uncircumcised can be made new creations and that's the chief joy... the most important thing... but there's a big difference between 'no longer required' and 'is of no account'

Romans 3:1 and 1 corinthians 7 seem to be at odds with each other until they're given a context.

 

[tonga]

Miah when Jesus fulfilled the Law it means all of it right all 613 commands including the 10 commandments. Not aboloish but fulfill.

I've heard Christians say this before, but I don't understand what it means.
What does "fulfill the law" mean?

 

[MahogonySnail]

this website explains fairly well the idea of fulfilling the Law:

http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html

 

[MahogonySnail]

Now some christians take this idea of "fullfilling but not abolishing" to mean that the Law is still binding for Christians. They focus on the bit where Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law. And this is partly what I have a problem with. Generally these christians do not obey the whole law but pick and choose which parts they want to believe and do it in their own way, and reject the rest.

Others take it to mean that the law is no longer binding for those who believe in Christ because Christ obeyd and kept the requirements of the law for believers. But is still binding for everyone else.

Others believe that the law was completely replaced , gone, done away with since Christ and is no longer in effect at all.

And theres probably a few other different beliefs around about this topic.

The difference between abolish and fulfill is very much a source of confusion/debate in christianity.

 

[wisdomseeker]

peace be to you

I liked your post miah45.

I Believe Gods purpose with the foods in the law was for health reason .Many health and wellness books mimic the food laws(what ya can and cannot eat)(Also alot specify eating certain foods with other foods hinder digestion)
Pork is bad for you imop.I dont eat pork because i think its a commandment not to.Its because God advised not to eat it.
If we are not going to take the verse about pork on a carnal basis but on a spiritual.Should you not do same with all scripture then?
Jews have alot of things they do because they were given the oracles of God and were our facsimile,example.Christians expecting Jews to be just like them Do not read the old testament.
to miah 45
Im curious tho why you wouldnt fullfill the passover since it was asked to be passed down for remeberance , christian jew or not christian.i mean im sure God wouldnt kill ya for not attending or anything but its a good time to spend with your family

math 22,36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

john13,
Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
A new commandment i give unto you, That ye Love one another; as I have Love you, that ye also Love one another.
More detailed decription below-----------------------V

mark10,19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery( Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. ) Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him Loved him

If you love God your a friend of mine
Love a Friend in god

 

[Miah45]

peace be to you

I liked your post miah45.
to miah 45
Im curious tho why you wouldnt fullfill the passover since it was asked to be passed down for remeberance , christian jew or not christian.i mean im sure God wouldnt kill ya for not attending or anything but its a good time to spend with your family

Did you mean when I said this...?:

"..I for one won't be celebrating Passover purely because I'm Jewish and that's what we do... it's intercession, it's a lot of things... but I want to draw close to Jesus through it... he's 'all over that feast', and after celebrating it for so many years I want to connect to him in it in a fresh living way every time."
(emphasis added)

I mean it's not the only reason I will be celebrating it!....Sorry If I confused you!

 

[Miah45]

this website explains fairly well the idea of fulfilling the Law:

http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html

I actually really like that article Mahogany! GOOD POST!!

It's really well articulated, clear and concise.

For me it really helps convey my feelings about how Jesus satisfied the Mosaic Law without opposing it. It's hard to explain to a lot of Messianics and Christians what Paul really means in Romans, and why I love to celebrate God's appointed times of feasts etc without seeming to so many to be coming back under the Mosaic Law.

As I said before even Torah points to the fact that the Mosaic Covenant is the only temporary covenant.

I love this prophetic passage from Jeremiah 31 which hints at the New Covenant to come:

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

 

[BLC]

I've heard Christians say this before, but I don't understand what it means.
What does "fulfill the law" mean?

The believer is to walk by faith in Christ who fulfilled the law and all righteousness (Mt 3:15, 5:18). Christ, who fulfilled the law, dwells within us (Col 1:27). We have received His righteousness that fulfilled the law (Rom 5:17,18). His righteousness that has been given to us by grace when we believed (Rom 3:22) is the righteousness of faith (Rom 4:5,13). For us to fulfill the law we simply walk by faith in God's righteousness. That faith works by love (Gal 5:6). God's righteousness is fulfilled in us when we walk by faith in the love of God. For love is the fulfillment of the law (Rom 13:8, Gal 5:14). We can walk in love because we have the Holy Spirit within who sheds that love in our hearts (Rom 5:5). The fruit of that love that we have through the Holy Spirit, against such there is no law (Gal 5:22).

When we walk after the Spirit and live in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (which is what the law is against) (Gal 5:16), but the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Rom 8:4). When we walk in love toward one another, we have fulfilled every single part of the law (Gal 5:14, James 2:8). When we restore our brother and bear one another's burdens, we fulfill the law of Christ (Gal 6:2). If we speak evil of one another or judge our brother, we are speaking evil of the law and become a judge of the law and not a doer of it (James 4:11,12).

There is one law and one lawgiver (James 4:12, 2:10,11). If we offend in one point of the law we are guilty of all the law and become a transgressor. The law was given that every mouth might be stopped and the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:18,19). However, we are to 'Owe no man anything, but to love one another, for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law' (Rom 3:18).

 

[Auchin]

i have thought about this too and like there is alot about what to eat and what not to and maybe jesus came to make a way for us to live cause in old testiment, i knoe i wud be making like 10 offerings every day but ya i like how u think maybe jexux came to replace this way of being clensed buyt the laws still stand and ya i am with MahogonySnail on like the day of rest like origanly saturday but sunday to christians now, but like what do the all do on it, they go OUT to church in exidos it says to stay in your tent (house) on the sabbith. and to likht a fire 1 wud have to go out. but ya i have personally made saturday mine, like i do nothing saturday, dtay in bed, read text pray. but sunday go church n do work n all that.

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

I have come to know the Law of sin and death points to my need for Jesus! The Law is what the unbelieveing world shall be judged by, all of us fall under this Law! Guilt and comdenation come with sin, which brings death to the inside of us. Jesus came that we might have life! We are not saved by works, The Law is works! The Law of God is Good, it points out where I fall short! It shows my need to change and shows me how good God really is! It shows me His patients, and His understanding of me and how we try to please Him, but we always falling short! It teaches me His Grace, undeserved favor, and teaches me how much He really does love me! It shows me the right way and teaches me about Him! How to hear Him and learn to obey what the Holy Spirit says to us, whereby over time, becoming more and more free from sin, like Him. The Law when looked at in the right way, through the eyes of Jesus, gives life. But when the Law is looked at without Jesus it brings death, judgement and punnishment! Jesus came not to destroy the Law, it proves to be good, when understood.