a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

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Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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a born-again Christian can never lose their salvation

to illustrate: a child can ask "what does born mean?", or "what does being physically born mean?" even though the child is already physically born, in the same way, just because a Christian can ask "what does receive mean?" just because of the mere difficulty in understanding it, and nothing else. Even with confusion in terminologies, Christians can still be saved.

if a child forgot his/her physical birthday, does that mean the child was never physically born to begin with? that's absurd. The same way, even if Christians forgot the day of their salvation, they can still be saved

for a married couple, if they are unable to make the vow the same way they did at the wedding, does that mean that they cease to be married? Definitely not, since that's not "grounds for divorce" and God hates divorce anyway. The same way, even if you are unable to pray the sinner's prayer like you did on the day of salvation you can still be saved.

if there's fights and arguments in marriage, does that mean that the married couple cease to be married? Again, for the same reason that you will have ups and downs in your walk with Jesus, but still, you can still be saved.

if a seedling bear no fruit, does that mean that ... ok, you get my point, it takes time to bear fruits, but still, you can still be saved.

any more illustrations will be more than welcomed in this thread, thank you
A saved person can only lose their salvation if Jesus fails, He said He would lose none of those (the elect) that the Father has given Him.

So a true believer has nothing to worry about, we have ex murderers adulterers and all kinds of sinners among Gods saved people. We no longer give ourselves over to serve sin, but we enter into a battle against our sin nature. We don't conquer sin until we receive our glorified bodies after death, so we will continue to sin until we die but not intentionally.

So Christians are called to share the Gospel with everyone, including murderers, prostitutes and gangsters. We never know who God has chosen to save, so we can't judge them by their lifestyles
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
even, for example a hard headed atheist, if their heart is somehow soft and sensitive enough to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, if the atheist is willing to pay attention to the heart, and comment about the feeling of conviction, that can open the door to salvation

^as an extreme example, but not sure if that can actually happen. That may be a pipe dream, but who knows

a hard exterior but soft on the inside
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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even, for example a hard headed atheist, if their heart is somehow soft and sensitive enough to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, if the atheist is willing to pay attention to the heart, and comment about the feeling of conviction, that can open the door to salvation

^as an extreme example, but not sure if that can actually happen. That may be a pipe dream, but who knows

a hard exterior but soft on the inside
God can save anyone, no matter how much they have sinned or how hardened they are. We just don't know who Gods elect are, so we must share the Gospel with everyone.

No person will ever choose to believe in Christ, unless God draws them to Himself. We are all born dead in our sins and God haters, none have the ability to believe and accept Christ unless God causes us to believe. That's why Christ had to come and do everything for us, because the dead have no ability to do anything to produce faith
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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God is strong. We are indwelt with his holy spirit and we have been bought with a price. Satan cannot overcome that. 1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
It is not that simple. Here is Paul talking about this issue.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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God can save anyone, no matter how much they have sinned or how hardened they are. We just don't know who Gods elect are, so we must share the Gospel with everyone.

No person will ever choose to believe in Christ, unless God draws them to Himself. We are all born dead in our sins and God haters, none have the ability to believe and accept Christ unless God causes us to believe. That's why Christ had to come and do everything for us, because the dead have no ability to do anything to produce faith
This is a point of disagreement between Calvinists and Armenians. Calvinists agree with you but Armenians disagree with you.

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to this web site,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
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It is not that simple. Here is Paul talking about this issue.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
That's Paul's personal testimony. Chapter 8 speaks of Paul's victory over what he described in chapter 7.
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
a born-again Christian can never lose their salvation

to illustrate: a child can ask "what does born mean?", or "what does being physically born mean?" even though the child is already physically born, in the same way, just because a Christian can ask "what does receive mean?" just because of the mere difficulty in understanding it, and nothing else. Even with confusion in terminologies, Christians can still be saved.

if a child forgot his/her physical birthday, does that mean the child was never physically born to begin with? that's absurd. The same way, even if Christians forgot the day of their salvation, they can still be saved

for a married couple, if they are unable to make the vow the same way they did at the wedding, does that mean that they cease to be married? Definitely not, since that's not "grounds for divorce" and God hates divorce anyway. The same way, even if you are unable to pray the sinner's prayer like you did on the day of salvation you can still be saved.

if there's fights and arguments in marriage, does that mean that the married couple cease to be married? Again, for the same reason that you will have ups and downs in your walk with Jesus, but still, you can still be saved.

if a seedling bear no fruit, does that mean that ... ok, you get my point, it takes time to bear fruits, but still, you can still be saved.

any more illustrations will be more than welcomed in this thread, thank you

Born-again is a Spiritual birth
Adam and Eve died Spiritually when they committed sin.
Before they sinned they were naked which represent innocence/purity
A new born bade/ child is innocent/pure as the child grows, the day they knowingly sin (inheritance fruit knowledge good and evil) they will die Spiritually hence Born Again
Jesus stated: John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
A Born Again believer who willing/confess makes the decision to stop following Jesus, (free Will) Spiritually dies.
Their names will be eased from the Book of life
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
This is a future prophecy which will happen on the day of Judgement.
Note these people in their life time had the authority of Christ operating in their lives but on their death bed, they died a sinner, Either rejected Christ in their latter days or were living a double life.
Jesus stated “ I never knew you” why? Because in their latter state “ye that work iniquity”
Sin/unconfess sin always keep you out of Heaven, no matter who you are.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Born-again is a Spiritual birth
Adam and Eve died Spiritually when they committed sin.
Before they sinned they were naked which represent innocence/purity
A new born bade/ child is innocent/pure as the child grows, the day they knowingly sin (inheritance fruit knowledge good and evil) they will die Spiritually hence Born Again
Jesus stated: John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
A Born Again believer who willing/confess makes the decision to stop following Jesus, (free Will) Spiritually dies.
Their names will be eased from the Book of life
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
This is a future prophecy which will happen on the day of Judgement.
Note these people in their life time had the authority of Christ operating in their lives but on their death bed, they died a sinner, Either rejected Christ in their latter days or were living a double life.
Jesus stated “ I never knew you” why? Because in their latter state “ye that work iniquity”
Sin/unconfess sin always keep you out of Heaven, no matter who you are.
First notice they are claiming works. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus not works. They didn't claim faith in Him. Here is a pertinent scripture about those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Who is going to take them out of the hand of God?

John 10 AMPC

24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
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First notice they are claiming works. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus not works. They didn't claim faith in Him. Here is a pertinent scripture about those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Who is going to take them out of the hand of God?

John 10 AMPC

24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

How can one say they are Believers of Jesus Christ without works?
Works is the evidence of your faith.
Living and sharing the Gospel are works of faith.
It is not God’s purpose to save a person then the person locks themselves up in a monastery.
Mark 16:15-18 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
You have misinterpreted Matt 7: 21-23 it was by faith with works they were able to prophesied, cast out devils, do wonderful works in Jesus name.
A unbeliever cannot do this. But they died in a sinful nature which God will not accept when comes to sin …..Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
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This is a point of disagreement between Calvinists and Armenians. Calvinists agree with you but Armenians disagree with you.

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to this web site,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
I have been in the middle of this controversy. They have their verses supporting their view as well. This is outside of the Apostles Creed therefore is agree to disagree. That was part of the early elders decision to create it. The second reason was any disagreement against the creed is to be considered heresy. Since this issue is not covered in the Apostles Creed it is to agree to disagree. When it was written in 390 upgrading from the Roman Creed there were many lower level issues they had disagreements about. The plentiful gospel preaching denominations in the US are the result of this.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
I have been in the middle of this controversy. They have their verses supporting their view as well. This is outside of the Apostles Creed therefore is agree to disagree. That was part of the early elders decision to create it. The second reason was any disagreement against the creed is to be considered heresy. Since this issue is not covered in the Apostles Creed it is to agree to disagree. When it was written in 390 upgrading from the Roman Creed there were many lower level issues they had disagreements about. The plentiful gospel preaching denominations in the US are the result of this.
I'll ask our pastor for his opinion on how important this issue is, if he says it not important then I will leave it alone and agree to disagree. But if he says that it is important enough to effect our walk with God, then I will resume the good fight and fly Calvin's flag high.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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I'll ask our pastor for his opinion on how important this issue is, if he says it not important then I will leave it alone and agree to disagree. But if he says that it is important enough to effect our walk with God, then I will resume the good fight and fly Calvin's flag high.
Personally I am a died in the wool Reformed/Calvinist. At 73 I have been a deacon and elder in 3 different Reformed denomination churches.(moved twice at the expense of my company.) One was a Reformed Church in America and the other 2 were Presbyterian PCA churches. I however have close friend adhering to the Arminian viewpoint. I have politely discussed the differences between the two views with them. We just agree to disagree. This issue is outside the Apostles Creed.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
Still waiting for your response in another thread for you to explain how these support your position.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
I have been in the middle of this controversy. They have their verses supporting their view as well. This is outside of the Apostles Creed therefore is agree to disagree. That was part of the early elders decision to create it. The second reason was any disagreement against the creed is to be considered heresy. Since this issue is not covered in the Apostles Creed it is to agree to disagree. When it was written in 390 upgrading from the Roman Creed there were many lower level issues they had disagreements about. The plentiful gospel preaching denominations in the US are the result of this.
The reason that Pelageus, Arminius, and Westley wrote against the Augustinians/Calvinists was the lack of moral lifestyle in the once saved always mentality. Although not on the Apostles Creed, living a sinful life will not allow one into the kingdom of God.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
Arminianism is a man made construct. It blasphemes the holy spirit when the teaching insists God did not do it all with the sacrifice of his only begotten son. It installs human will and egocentrism into the equation. Which is what its patriarch Arminius was about in the first place.
The same though can in fairness be said about John Calvin and Calvinism.
The simple truth a carpenter who was king of the universe delivered into the world and then died to seal for all time is overshadowed by such men and their ego. The error is to beleive in a denomination and its instructions as to how to find God through allegiance to said instructions.

The truth of God is in Christ. And his eternal message was delivered in just the verse found in John 3:16.
God doesn't equivocate. He gave his son, himself, the word as The Word. Then he died, raised after three days from the dead to prove he was speaking truth that those dead in their sins can die to that state and raise renewed as a new creation in him and overcome the world just as he did.

It's that simple.
Believe in Jesus.
Or believe in Arminius. Or Calvin. Or all those other patriarchs that formed their own construct of faith in Jesus' name. William Miller, John Calvin, John Knox,Jacobus Arminius,Alexander Campbell, Menno Simons, and all others for whom denominations are founded and named in posterity.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Arminianism is a man made construct. It blasphemes the holy spirit when the teaching insists God did not do it all with the sacrifice of his only begotten son. It installs human will and egocentrism into the equation.
God does not do your believing/trusting for you. He gives the faith for you to do that trusting, but he does not do your trusting for you. And you doing that is NOT you trying to earn justification. Paul makes it very clear that trusting in the blood of Christ is diametrically opposed to working to earn your justification. He is very clear that believing/trusting is the ONLY thing that can justify a person. And that is what YOU do to be justified.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
God does not do your believing/trusting for you. He gives the faith for you to do that trusting, but he does not do your trusting for you. And you doing that is NOT you trying to earn justification. Paul makes it very clear that trusting in the blood of Christ is diametrically opposed to working to earn your justification. He is very clear that believing/trusting is the ONLY thing that can justify a person. And that is what YOU do to be justified.
I am not Arminian. I am Christian. Therefore, you will understand when I tell you I do not believe as Arminian's do.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,632
13,030
113
I am not Arminian. I am Christian. Therefore, you will understand when I tell you I do not believe as Arminian's do.
Why do people think that there are only two options -- Arminianism or Calvinism?

Since both are in error, there is a THIRD OPTION.

Ignore both those false teachings, and believe the Bible.

Satan has managed to deceive a very large number of Christians into believing false doctrines, because they have been snared by the doctrines of men.