a church contradiction

thefightinglamb · Mar 1, 2009

Has anyone else ever noticed that a lot of the churches that believe in free-will also believe in faith 'alone' over works?

Why is this a contradiction?

Okay, first in most of these churches after they turn to the Lord, they are asked to "do" something...to come to the front of the church or stand-up or raise their hand or something...The point is they are immediately told or pushed to do "something themselves."

Secondly, just the straight forwardness of turning to the Lord or "choosing" God they forget "is" a work according to their way of thinking, but they claim it is by grace alone...Let me be a little clearer, most churches like this want "you" to actively count the cost (something I see only as Jesus' sacrifice--but I am pretty sure they want you to look at the price "you" will have to pay to become Christian)...

I honestly don't think anyone who is a slave to sin has ever chosen Christ before He chose them...And after Christ chooses someone, I don't think they can nullify his choice...what about Judas? Good question me--not sure what to think about Him?

A refutation might be someone saying then God condemns people to hell...My response is kind of like Paul using the pot maker making a pot...but also that everyone "chose" hell--meaning they choose sin and its consequences through Adam, and God is not obligated to save or free anyone from their own sin prisons...but if the Lord chooses to shine light on a person than they have no choice they are in the light, in God's hands like it or not, fight it or not...

See the way a lot of people think is "you" save yourself by 'choosing Christ...and this is the only alternative to believing that God is merciful to those whom He is merciful, and he hardens whom he will harden...

Personally I think those he chooses in a certain way can remain in the dark though they are with the Lord...introduced my own contradiction, but I believe those whom Jesus chooses who remain in their sins 'darkness' they will suffer worse than the unbelievers hell...

A last contradiction, what about that contradiction between eternal security and free-will/fate...I am not sure that eternal security believers belive in fate until they start believing in eternal security--then they are 'fated' to heaven...

Just musing...

May God's love, light and blessings be lavished on us all--
tony

MahogonySnail · Mar 1, 2009

I personally don't think the average lost sinner who turns to Jesus particularly cares about whether Jesus chose them first or they chose Jesus, or what churches believe. Although probably most false converts are made in churches where they are forced to "do" something when they are not ready or may not truly believe.

Being born in sin via Adam is beside the point. Remember Christ came to remedy that. The price has already been paid for every human being via Christ's sacrifice. I wouldn't even entertain the idea in my mind that God actively prevents anyone from coming to the truth. I don't know how anyone who claims to know God would say that God chooses or causes someone to remain in darkness. It is entirely contrary to scripture, His nature and frankly it is offensive to all the missionary efforts around the world.

thefightinglamb · Mar 1, 2009

I wasn't trying to say that "God prevents anyone" or that "God chooses or causes someone to remain in darkness" ; what I was trying to show is that sin is darkness, and it is people's choice to 'live in the darkness rather than the light' that imprisons everyone to sin unless Jesus actively saves them, and causes them to want Him, righteousness...thus it is God's choice to make some Christians out of grace, but if he chose "everyone" than either God's will is not done or it is all on "us" to save ourselves by choosing Christ; I hold to Christ choosing us first...the point being that no one with a heart inclined to evil has any reason to choose Christ, unless the Lord calls and moves them to desire righteousness first? 'What does light and darkness have in common?'

What person who "clearly" saw wouldn't choose Jesus Christ as their Savior? And with that knowledge, you have to conclude that those who choose to deny him are in the darkness, a willing victim of their own sin.

Don't you think its equally strange to hold to a view that people clearly see the Lord and choose darkness? I am saying this as opposed to saying being in the dark, they don't yet see the light.

I know no where in scripture that it said the Israelites 'chose' God (in the prophets the Lord does give them a choice to walk in righteousness or wickedness but the choice of having Him as their God was never theirs, they were always favored)[Did the other nations have a choice of the Lord or God or where they enslaved to the darkness/blindness--the Cannanites, Peruziets, Amaleks, et cetera?], or in the New Testament that says his disciples 'chose him' rather than Him choosing his disciples... The point of sinners turning to Christ is that the Lord has chosen them if they choose righteousness...they need not guess if they are God's chosen...they see the Lord therefore they are...otherwise they would still be in the dark, in love with sin...

You really think some people taste and see that the Lord is good and choose to be wicked?

I could be wrong...

I was just trying to say there is definitely a contradiction in people choosing Christ and saying it is all Christ's sacrifice to save us...Both would seem incredibly hard...And it would appear that being saved would lie in the person choosing more than the sacrifice itself...for not everyone will be saved, but most churches believe all who choose Christ will be...I believe that it is all Christ's sacrifice and no one has a choice...or if there is a choice for those the Lord chooses than it is as obvious as choosing strawberries to dog crap, or choosing to return to dog crap...

I do think 'people prevent themselves' from coming to Christ and Christ is not obligated to free, or force if-you-will, those who so choose to come to the light. But he does choose to free some people in the dark...Does he free everyone? I don't think anyone living would/could say so...why would some people still love the dark?

There is a contradiction...sinners who turn to Christ can be assurred as the Lord has moved them to him...

God's light
tony

ps...I think I hold the same belief about people who call themselves Christians and live in sin...would any true Christian choose to be superficial or nominal? Is it not true that they are still blinded to the way of righteousness and what it really means to 'be Christian'?

1still_waters · Mar 1, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Probably the only thing in your post I agree with, but good point.

I think both sides of this thorny issue of free will vs God's choosing, have to quit acting like they understand the details of how someone comes to God. Both sides are well supported in the Bible, thus leaving much undefined territory on each side.

Instead of acting like the undefined territory can be defined, maybe we can just be glad that people are saved in the first place?

Truth4All · Mar 1, 2009

There are certainly churches out there that weave in works as part of their own salvation plan, but that's not God's salvation plan. God only requires trust in the Savior and a repentant heart. One could never "work" hard enough to ever cover the stains of his own sins. If he could then Jesus' death on the cross would have been in vein.

NazariteNation · Mar 1, 2009

thefightinglamb said:

Actually, your assumptions about those of us who believe in free will is completely wrong and apparently something that your leaders have lead you to believe in order to keep you under foot.

We believe that your relationship with God, just like any other healthy loving relationship that you may have, takes two hearts totally in love with one another in order to function properly. We feel that both the relationship between a loving parent and a child as well as a loving husband and his wife were originally created by God to help us better understand His love for us.

Think about it, for those of you who are parents out there, you love your child. You want the best for them and do your best to protect them. However, there comes a time when that child begins to make decisions on his or her own. The parent can teach the child, mold the child, and even be on call whenever the child needs guidance however ultimately it is up the the child to make the final decision on what His or Her actions will be. Of course the child will have to face the repercusions of their actions.

Another analogy... I believe that marriage, as God originally intended it, is the ultimate reflection of what our relationship with God should be like. When a husband and wife marry the bible says that they become one. I believe that same holds true when we whole heartedly invite Jesus to come live in our hearts. We surrender ourselves completely unto Him (our actions, our dreams, our needs, our desires) and in turn, according to Matthew, God will indeed take care of our every need.

"Let no man tear apart what the Lord has brought together..."

However, even though God frowns heavily on divorce, God does allow divorce on the grounds of Adultery. It's safe to assume that in God's eyes that for one to commit adultery against marriage is the equivalent to committing idolatry against God. In my opinion, this is evidence that a person can choose to walk out on his or her relationship with God just as they can choose to walk out on his or her relationship with their spouse. Not that it is God's desire for that person to walk away but ultimately the choice to repent and turn away from their adulterous activities is ultimately up to the individual. If that individual chooses to continue live in such an unrepentant state then God being a just judge has no choice but to judge that individual just as He would anyone else regardless if that person was once saved or not.

To put things simply God loves us, each and every one of us and it is not His will that one should perish. In fact God is more than willing to forgive us of our sins, no matter how big or small, if we will only turn our hearts to Him in repentance. That's the beauty of His grace. However, that choice is ultimately up to us to choose God over our own selfish desires and ambitions and if we refuse to do so... whether we were once saved or not... the penalty is judgment and death.

(BTW - It should be noted that repentance is a condition of heart rather than just mere spoken words.)

Think about it guys. If God was quick to toss Lucifer, the chief angel in charge of praise and worship, out of heaven for his rebellion what makes you think that God is going to allow someone else into heaven who at one time may have whole heartedly repented however since that time has become completely unrepentant for whatever reason (even allowing themselves to be duped by faulty doctrine)? Of course not! To do so would be unjust and hypocrtical thus God would have to allow every sinner into heaven.

Anyways, for most of us who believe in free will, it's not so much an issue of "works" as it is "do you love Jesus enough to lay your life down for Him just as He layed His life down for us"? Of course no one is perfect and we all stumble but praise God for His infinite mercy and grace which overcomes all sin! However the choice is yours whether or not you are willing to accept it through repentance...

MahogonySnail · Mar 1, 2009

sorry Tony I wasn't having a go at you or anything , just general musings of my own about the idea that God chooses some to be not saved.

In regards to this whether Jesus actively chooses someone or not thing, I think we need to think "big picture". Remember God has called everyone to Himself in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. I think you are failing to note that point. The message of Good News, the Gospel has gone out, wherever it is preached. And even where it isn't preached sometimes through the most unobvious and seemingly unspiritual ways. So God has already called everyone who hears the Gospel. Once they hear it, it then is up to them what they do with it. Because the Gospel message, the Word, contains spiritual power.

Unbound · Mar 1, 2009

I do not see a contradiction with volition and salvation by faith.

Let’s see if we cannot try to clear this up. It is certainly true that we are saved by grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Our salvation is totally the work of God and is given by His grace. Faith is the vehicle He has chosen through which we are saved. There is an outward manifestation of our salvation, which comes AFTER salvation, and that is works. Both Paul and James confim this fact. Paul saying God prepared us to good WORKS,

Ephesians 2:10 (New King James Version)
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And James telling us our faith is DEAD without works,

James 2:26 (New King James Version)
26 For as the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith and salvation are totally gifts from the Almighty. It is our choice whether we accept this gift or not,

Deuteronomy 30:14-16 (New King James Version)
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (New King James Version)
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

God chose us for salvation. This was based the foreknowledge He had, knowing ahead of time who would choose to accept His gracious offer

Romans 8:28-30 (New King James Version)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

We must remember that God calls the shots. We cannot have things “our way”. He laid out His plan of salvation and we must come to that salvation in the way He has set forth, not the way we “think” it should be. Some think that as long as they “believe” in Christ, they can live in whatever manner they wish. This has been so since the time of the early church. However, James really sums up the “faith and works” issue when he warns,

James 2:14-19 (New King James Version)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Works are an evidence of faith. Works work in harmony with the gift of faith God has so graciously given us. They work in tandem to bring growth to the Kingdom. Faith is the foundation. Without faith, any attempts at building will fail. We work because of what Christ did for us on the cross. Without that victory over sin for us, we would be totally unable to even contemplate walking in good works, much less actually walking in them. We now have a choice to walk in those works whereas before we had none because we were enslaved by sin. We have that choice because God graciously chose to extended His mercy to us.

Romans 9:14-18 (New King James Version)
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on Whomever I will have compassion.”[f]16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g]18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

I will not even question why, I am just grateful I was chosen and I gladly choose to walk in whatever works He sets before me to the best I am able, not in an attempt to earn salvation (which is impossible in the first place), but rather to acknowledge the fact that He chose me and chose to pay a price for me which I will never be able to repay.

NazariteNation · Mar 2, 2009

I assume the true underlying question here is ultimately "Should Daily Repentance Be Considered As Works?" at least that's what I'm getting out of all of this. All I hear from several people is "Works This" and "Legalism that". What is so wrong with wanting to maintain a healthy relationship with our Lord and Saviour on a daily basis? If for some reason you feel that this is wrong then you really need check your doctrine and your heart because sounds to me as if the enemy may have somehow corrupted this line of thinking...

MahogonySnail · Mar 2, 2009

I don't know I probably wouldn't call daily repentance necessarily a sign of a healthy relationship. That indicates a) you sin so much you need to repent daily, or b) you think you have sinned so much you need to repent daily, when in fact you haven't. I would think that b) is leaning more towards a works-based way of living than trusting in Christ and God's grace. And a) a failure to realise fully that we are under God's grace and set free from sin.

NazariteNation · Mar 2, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

*lol* I guess I should have made myself a bit more clear. I'll never understand how people can read so much into a simple post...

Anyways, I wasn't trying to insinuate that daily repentance is a sign of possessing a healthy relationship with the Lord. I see daily repentance as a result of possessing a healthy relationship with the Lord. We all of do things on a daily basis that could be considered sin that we may not even be aware of. For example, breaking the speed limit or unknowingly saying something that someone else could have found hurtful and may hold against you. Sometimes we need to pray for repentance over things that we may not even be aware that we have committed.

Hope that clears things up...

MahogonySnail · Mar 2, 2009

Those two sentences right there are contradictory lol. OK then, we'll call it a "result" instead of a "sign", but I think I interpreted what you said right.

.

And that's why we are under God's grace. His grace covers all those things we don't even know about. I don't think God really answers wishy washy prayers? like.. "dear God please forgive me of things I don't even know whether I did or not, I know that today I did those things which I don't know I ever did, but I repent of these things I don't even know about ".

We can't really repent of something we don't know about.

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