A Counter Reply To The Atheist

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#1
My words in blue and his words in red.

I was responding to a question from a atheist. And I am posting it here so that it may can enlighten others or even for others to educate me on a deeper level in regards to the birth of Jesus.


Concerning the birth of Jesus: Matthew chap. 2 says Jesus was born during the reign of Herod who was seeking to harm him or have him killed. Herod died in 4 BC.

Luke chap. 2 here he says Jesus was born during time of the census when Cyrinius was governor of Syria (KJV) 6 AD. Now that is a span of 10 yrs. Only one can be true or neither have it right. Hope this helps.


( Let's set the stage….

A child is born!!! The Messiah lives!! The time period is around 4 to 6 B.C. We are in a Jewish culture. Fast forward to the writing of the Gospels. In brief between 33 A.D. and 90 A.D.

Matthew and Luke are both Jews writing in Greek. They come from a Jewish culture and the current language was mostly Greek.

Fast forward to the present. It is 2019. The KJV was published in 1611. The KJV is like the 7th English translation from the first English translation.

Okay now with this in mind when we study scripture we must keep in mind that the English translations are really close but some word translations in Greek have multiple meanings as to why each modern translation sounds very similar but some words are more accurate.

Cyrenius. the Grecized form of Quirinus. His full name was Publius Sulpicius Quirinus

Luke 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

The Greek word for first is

πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.

Luke 2:2 New International Version (NIV)

2 (This was the first census that took place while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

Footnotes:

  1. Luke 2:2 Or This census took place before
So the most accurate reading can be “This census took place before the time when Quirinius was governor of Syria.” Just as the NIV noted.

Also remember that Jewish writers wrote differently than moder writers. They wrote to tell a story as to why each Gospel doesn't record the exact same story but instead adds their own details. So to get the big picture you have to read through all of them in order to fill in the puzzle.

Just about every question has been asked about the Bible and with 2000+ years of time there is literally a good answer for most of your questions on errors, contradictions, or just simply trying to understand the message.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,106
2,259
113
64
#2
Concerning the birth of Jesus: Matthew chap. 2 says Jesus was born during the reign of Herod who was seeking to harm him or have him killed. Herod died in 4 BC.

Luke chap. 2 here he says Jesus was born during time of the census when Cyrinius was governor of Syria (KJV) 6 AD. Now that is a span of 10 yrs. Only one can be true or neither have it right. Hope this helps.

Matthew and Luke are both Jews writing in Greek.
Hi Roughsoul, the census was taken in 6 "BC", not 6 "AD", yes? There is therefore no time difference (if that is indeed the case, and I believe that it is).

Also, as an aside, do we know for a fact that St. Luke was a Jew?

Thanks!

~Deut
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,470
2,821
113
#3
Yeshua/Jesus Christ was born in late September, not late December.

Constantine started the ‘birth of Christ’ celebration in late December because of a pagan celebration of Tamar....... long story but, Constantine was trying to ‘create world peace’ by merging paganism and Christianity.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,140
4,526
113
#4
Hi Roughsoul, the census was taken in 6 "BC", not 6 "AD", yes? There is therefore no time difference (if that is indeed the case, and I believe that it is).

Also, as an aside, do we know for a fact that St. Luke was a Jew?

Thanks!

~Deut
Of course Luke was a Jew, after all he was a doctor! (note the lump formed by the tongue in my cheek.)
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#5
Hi Roughsoul, the census was taken in 6 "BC", not 6 "AD", yes? There is therefore no time difference (if that is indeed the case, and I believe that it is).

Also, as an aside, do we know for a fact that St. Luke was a Jew?



~Deut
Hi Roughsoul, the census was taken in 6 "BC", not 6 "AD", yes? There is therefore no time difference (if that is indeed the case, and I believe that it is).

Also, as an aside, do we know for a fact that St. Luke was a Jew?

Thanks!

~Deut
The Bible isnt specific as to why use of words is important.

The old secular pedia or wikipedia
states that:

The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE.[1] The Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1–5), but places it within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 9 years earlier.[2][3][4] No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible,[5] and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made an error.[6]

So obviously scholars disagree but if first can be translated as before as some Christian Greek scholars claim then it makes sense.

On Luke, well you have arguments for both him being a Jew or Gentile but the way he wrote and the knowledge he had of the Jewish customs and traditions makes me believe he was a Jew. But I understand this is all circumstantial evidence and not direct evidence.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#6
Yeshua/Jesus Christ was born in late September, not late December.

Constantine started the ‘birth of Christ’ celebration in late December because of a pagan celebration of Tamar....... long story but, Constantine was trying to ‘create world peace’ by merging paganism and Christianity.
Wasn't really answering the actual day of birth but more or less on why he believes that Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the time of Jesus's birth dealing with Herod's rule and the census that some scholars say are years apart making Matthew and Luke's claims that Jesus was born during both of those incidents and that contradicts what the scholars timeline of these historical events.

Ole Constantine lol oh how many questions come out from his life.

Almost reminds me of how John Wesley turned drinking songs into Gospel songs to sound more inviting to the unbelievers.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
#7
From my experiences bottom line it becomes a matter of faith as to where does the faith come from and whom does it belongs to?

Not that other discussions cannot lead to believing God not seen like his birth . But in most cases as soon as you remove the things seen as rudiments of this world most lose interest. From my experience in effect philosophy dies .

Can't discover God under a microscope.

Lots of great ministries like that of Ken Ham: "Back to Genesis's using bones and then talking about the missing bones.(the faith issue ) and again most walk away .(no faith). A good mixture is needed and for God to cause the growth if any .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#8
From my experiences bottom line it becomes a matter of faith as to where does the faith come from and whom does it belongs to?

Not that other discussions cannot lead to believing God not seen like his birth . But in most cases as soon as you remove the things seen as rudiments of this world most lose interest. From my experience in effect philosophy dies .

Can't discover God under a microscope.

Lots of great ministries like that of Ken Ham: "Back to Genesis's using bones and then talking about the missing bones.(the faith issue ) and again most walk away .(no faith). A good mixture is needed and for God to cause the growth if any .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
God is the source of truth and his word should be likewise. A Holy book will be.

Faith also involves confidence and assurance.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,106
2,259
113
64
#9
So obviously scholars disagree but if first can be translated as before as some Christian Greek scholars claim then it makes sense.
Hi again brother, I looked into this many moons ago and remember the same argument being made, but I also remember that the evidence ended up showing that the "BC" dating was correct. I will try to find my notes and get back to you.

~Deut
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
2,194
1,258
113
#10
Atheist or Christian. Doesnt matter. If they are dogmatic direspectful and derogatory, they are doing the devil'work.
Humility and giving people the benefit of the doubt are traits sadly lacking these days. When we demonise we become demons.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#11
Hi again brother, I looked into this many moons ago and remember the same argument being made, but I also remember that the evidence ended up showing that the "BC" dating was correct. I will try to find my notes and get back to you.

~Deut
Cool I would love to see it
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,106
2,259
113
64
#12
Hi again brother, I looked into this many moons ago and remember the same argument being made, but I also remember that the evidence ended up showing that the "BC" dating was correct. I will try to find my notes and get back to you.

~Deut
Hello again @Roughsoul1991, I haven't had time to look for my notes yet, but I found this online and thought it might be useful in the meantime (though I believe that this is only part of the evidence for the Biblical account).

Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions, and there were actually two censuses taken. The “first census” mentioned in Luke 2:2 occurred during Quirinius’ first term as governor, and another during his second term. The second census is mentioned in Acts 5:37 and probably took place between AD 6 and 7 (Josephus links this census to an uprising led by Judas of Galilee). Luke was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, and his goal was to write “an orderly account” (Luke 1:3). It seems that Luke did write a careful, orderly account: he mentions two censuses, and it was during the first one that Jesus was born. It would be unlikely for such a meticulous historian to make a blatant mistake in his timeline of events. ~https://www.gotquestions.org/Quirinius-census.html

~Deut
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#13
Atheist or Christian. Doesnt matter. If they are dogmatic direspectful and derogatory, they are doing the devil'work.
Humility and giving people the benefit of the doubt are traits sadly lacking these days. When we demonise we become demons.
Regardless of their intentions. We are to stand boldly against evil and hold the line. If you cower away then what good are you? How does Christianity as whole change the culture if we cower from every question? I for one have enough faith in God that if I seek wisdom he will provide it. If I seek truth, God will reveal exactly what he wants. If I need faith, God will provide.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#14
Hello again @Roughsoul1991, I haven't had time to look for my notes yet, but I found this online and thought it might be useful in the meantime (though I believe that this is only part of the evidence for the Biblical account).

Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions, and there were actually two censuses taken. The “first census” mentioned in Luke 2:2 occurred during Quirinius’ first term as governor, and another during his second term. The second census is mentioned in Acts 5:37 and probably took place between AD 6 and 7 (Josephus links this census to an uprising led by Judas of Galilee). Luke was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, and his goal was to write “an orderly account” (Luke 1:3). It seems that Luke did write a careful, orderly account: he mentions two censuses, and it was during the first one that Jesus was born. It would be unlikely for such a meticulous historian to make a blatant mistake in his timeline of events. ~https://www.gotquestions.org/Quirinius-census.html

~Deut
You know I think I remember there being 3 censuses. Have you heard of that?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,952
2,775
113
#15
Hello again @Roughsoul1991, I haven't had time to look for my notes yet, but I found this online and thought it might be useful in the meantime (though I believe that this is only part of the evidence for the Biblical account).

Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions, and there were actually two censuses taken. The “first census” mentioned in Luke 2:2 occurred during Quirinius’ first term as governor, and another during his second term. The second census is mentioned in Acts 5:37 and probably took place between AD 6 and 7 (Josephus links this census to an uprising led by Judas of Galilee). Luke was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, and his goal was to write “an orderly account” (Luke 1:3). It seems that Luke did write a careful, orderly account: he mentions two censuses, and it was during the first one that Jesus was born. It would be unlikely for such a meticulous historian to make a blatant mistake in his timeline of events. ~https://www.gotquestions.org/Quirinius-census.html

~Deut
Hey is your profile picture your foreal face? Just wondering because he looks like a wise sage of Biblical truth.
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
2,194
1,258
113
#16
Regardless of their intentions. We are to stand boldly against evil and hold the line. If you cower away then what good are you? How does Christianity as whole change the culture if we cower from every question? I for one have enough faith in God that if I seek wisdom he will provide it. If I seek truth, God will reveal exactly what he wants. If I need faith, God will provide.
i give you the benefit of the doubt
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
2,194
1,258
113
#17
Regardless of their intentions. We are to stand boldly against evil and hold the line. If you cower away then what good are you? How does Christianity as whole change the culture if we cower from every question? I for one have enough faith in God that if I seek wisdom he will provide it. If I seek truth, God will reveal exactly what he wants. If I need faith, God will provide.
Just make sure you are aware of the real or potential evil inside you first.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,106
2,259
113
64
#18
We are to stand boldly against evil and hold the line. If you cower away then what good are you? How does Christianity as whole change the culture if we cower from every question?
I agree (y)(y)

We are to speak the truth "in love", with "gentleness and reverence" for our listeners .. 1 Corinthians 13:1; Ephesians 4:14-15; 1 Peter 3:15, but the truth we must speak nevertheless, or (as you said) we will not be any good to anyone (our loving defense of Biblical truth is for non-believers, of course, but it's also for our sakes and our brothers'/sisters' sakes, as well for God's glory .. Matthew 5:14-16).

1 Peter 3
15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

~Deut

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me."




.
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
2,194
1,258
113
#20
How we communicate says everything. What we say is not nearly as important. In fact content is often a bluff. Look how the argumentative Pharisee tries to draw in Jesus. Trap him. Make him look like a fool. Jesus knew their intentions werent honourable. The obsessive intellectual can play word games. Their attitude and behaviour is the key to who and what they really stand for.