A Misquoted Scripture?

[shad]

So you think that Jesus being angry with the disciple's unbelief, their fear and their doubt would be equal to beating them over the head with a stick. Couldn't He be angry with their unbelief and fear and be justified, especially when He is right there with them and they having problems with fear? He is right there with them, God in the flesh, and they are afraid. What in the world could they be afraid of? They were afraid because they did not trust Him. They were fearful because they had doubts as to who He was and whether He would deliver them. They were fearful of the things they had no control of and didn't know how Christ would respond. Christ was not just angry with the religious Pharisees, He was enraged so much so that the veins were popping out of His neck.

 

[MahogonySnail]

How about... frustrated? My point is he wasn't really enraged with his disciples for being fearful. In fact, I believe he expected it. He did not come to earth expecting to find an army of faith filled hardcore fanatics. You're right that fear is related to faith though. But I don't think it's enough to justify a christian being sent to hell. Unless that fear causes them to deny Christ. Then they may go to hell. As you know i believe in loss of salvation is possible.

 

[VW]

This verse has been used around the forum a lot lately (including by myself) and I'd love some insight. I think I know what it means and how to interpret it but I'd like some opinions.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor. 6:9-11

When reading this passage, is it talking about those who do not believe in Christ or people who commit these sins (repeatedly) who are Christians? Isn't the grace of salvation for all who accept Christ good enough to inherit the kingdom?

I know my answers, but I want to hear yours.

the judgment has already come. those who are in christ have acknowledged the judgment of the cross, and been joined with jesus in his death to these sort of things. and because they are joined with him in death, they are one with him in his life. this is salvation.

jesus does not practice these things, and neither do those who are in him. we all far short, and sin. the spirit convicts us, we agree, confess, and jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. in this way we by the spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, and know that we are the children of god.

if this process does not work in one, then they are not of the kingdom of heaven..

 

[Ash_JFF]

I've noticed that Paul is a good writer and tends to use a lot of dramatic examples in his letters. The verses that talk about boasting in the Lord come to mind - he is telling us that if we are going to boast (not a recommendation) then (at least) boast in the Lord.

I think he is doing the same thing here - he is describing people by their sin before Christ covered them with His saving blood, and then afterwords. So in a dramatic manner he is saying people without Christ are seen by God through their sin; people with Christ are seen by God through the blood of His Son

Good explanation. I never thought about it that way. We still sin but God sees the Blood.

 

[Browncoat]

What translation is this? I highlighted the part I find questionable.

It's The Complete Jewish Bible. Personally, it's my favorite translation, simply because it is the most accurate (along with the Hebrew Names Version and the Orthodox Jewish Bible) as far as the Tanakh ("old" testament) goes. It's been pretty accurate for the NT so far, too.

 

[Browncoat]

So you think that Jesus being angry with the disciple's unbelief, their fear and their doubt would be equal to beating them over the head with a stick. Couldn't He be angry with their unbelief and fear and be justified, especially when He is right there with them and they having problems with fear? He is right there with them, God in the flesh, and they are afraid. What in the world could they be afraid of? They were afraid because they did not trust Him. They were fearful because they had doubts as to who He was and whether He would deliver them. They were fearful of the things they had no control of and didn't know how Christ would respond. Christ was not just angry with the religious Pharisees, He was enraged so much so that the veins were popping out of His neck.

The Yeshua you are talking about and the Yeshua I read about in the NT are very, very different. If you believe YESHUA is this enraged and angered by sin, I can't imagine how you think G-d is with sin. He must be ready to strike us down...

The point is, the passages do not show Yeshua to be angry with his disciples AT ALL. He is a TEACHER. That was why they called him "Rabbi". He's a teacher, and teachers don't (or, shouldn't) be angry with their students, who are still learning.

 

[shad]

Browncoat,

Maybe it would be a good study for you to find the many moods of God that came through the person of Christ, the God-man. The God-man is the hypo-static union that Christ in the flesh was all God but was a man and though He was all man, He was God in the flesh. As the God-man or as the Son of God and the son of man, He took on the likeness of sinful flesh / Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7 and as a man of like passions was tempted in all points as a man without sin / Heb 4:15. Those scriptures can help you understand that Christ, as a man, had the passions of a man but never knew sin. Christ could experience anger or rage in His humanity toward the disciples or Pharisees (respectively) without any mental attitude sin. Anyone that teaches and preaches the word of God must learn how to discern and convey the mood of God in his message. People will not be moved by the presence of God without the mood of God being present. We often weep because of sorrow and joy but there is a weeping because of being grieved by the unbelief of others.

 

[Lauren]

Context is really important here. So many people quote this without the preceding passages which can lead to these verses being twisted to mean something so different.....


1 Corinthians 6-11

1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers. 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In the opening verses he is talking about disputes / lawsuits and that they should be settled among themselves (believers). Instead some were taking the the disputes into court to be decided by unbelievers. What a poor testimony to those unbelievers that believers should be so stubborn and unforgiving to be taking their suits into court! Shouldn't a believer rather be wronged or to be more willing to compromise and forgive rather than to drag their business in front of unbelievers to be a potential stumblingblock to those unbelievers coming to know the wonderful gospel of grace?

Then he goes on to remind them that the unbelievers are not be going to heaven. (in which their testimony before such people should be a far more important concern to them than being right in a lawsuit!) And finally a reminder that we were once just like the unbelievers until we were made righteous by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus!

No doubt about it, talking about unbelievers when it's talking about who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Browncoat]

Browncoat,

Maybe it would be a good study for you to find the many moods of God that came through the person of Christ, the God-man. The God-man is the hypo-static union that Christ in the flesh was all God but was a man and though He was all man, He was God in the flesh. As the God-man or as the Son of God and the son of man, He took on the likeness of sinful flesh / Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7 and as a man of like passions was tempted in all points as a man without sin / Heb 4:15. Those scriptures can help you understand that Christ, as a man, had the passions of a man but never knew sin. Christ could experience anger or rage in His humanity toward the disciples or Pharisees (respectively) without any mental attitude sin. Anyone that teaches and preaches the word of God must learn how to discern and convey the mood of God in his message. People will not be moved by the presence of God without the mood of God being present. We often weep because of sorrow and joy but there is a weeping because of being grieved by the unbelief of others.

There is absolutely nothing in the passages to suggest that Yeshua was angry, though. That's the problem.

 

[MahogonySnail]

There is absolutely nothing in the passages to suggest that Yeshua was angry, though. That's the problem.

Exactly. But if shad says Jesus was angry, even though the bible says nothing of the sort, then Jesus must have been angry .

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Alright time to tell everyone what I think.

I think that this scripture is taken out of context a lot. Mostly when we talk about homosexuals, some are very quick to quote this saying that they aren't allowed in heaven at all . The same with people who commit adultry. I cry poppycock to that one, friends! (before anyone gets in a huff I'm not promoting homosexuality or adultery nor do I take them lightly)

If we all agree that Jesus died for our sins, we must recognise it wasn't for some sins, or most sins, but ALL sins. That means homosexuality and adultery. To say that Jesus didn't die for these sins is to say that Jesus wasn't divine enough to defeat all sin -which is a bold face lie and a slap in the face.

And yes, I do believe that a Christian can commit sins repeatedly and still be Christians. It's called bondage. Just because we struggle with sin doesn't mean that we're not Christians- it means we're babes in Christ until He sets us free from these strongholds. We have to confess and do our best not to sin anymore because we love our God. The process of extracting sin from our lives is what brings us closer to God. The fact that sin is present in our lives (no matter what it is, there is no big or small sin) doesn't make us any less Christian if we accept Christ.

 

[Browncoat]

Alright time to tell everyone what I think.

I think that this scripture is taken out of context a lot. Mostly when we talk about homosexuals, some are very quick to quote this saying that they aren't allowed in heaven at all . The same with people who commit adultry. I cry poppycock to that one, friends! (before anyone gets in a huff I'm not promoting homosexuality or adultery nor do I take them lightly)

If we all agree that Jesus died for our sins, we must recognise it wasn't for some sins, or most sins, but ALL sins. That means homosexuality and adultery. To say that Jesus didn't die for these sins is to say that Jesus wasn't divine enough to defeat all sin -which is a bold face lie and a slap in the face.

And yes, I do believe that a Christian can commit sins repeatedly and still be Christians. It's called bondage. Just because we struggle with sin doesn't mean that we're not Christians- it means we're babes in Christ until He sets us free from these strongholds. We have to confess and do our best not to sin anymore because we love our God. The process of extracting sin from our lives is what brings us closer to God. The fact that sin is present in our lives (no matter what it is, there is no big or small sin) doesn't make us any less Christian if we accept Christ.

That's a "rep" point for you

 

[Thantali]

Alright time to tell everyone what I think.

I think that this scripture is taken out of context a lot. Mostly when we talk about homosexuals, some are very quick to quote this saying that they aren't allowed in heaven at all . The same with people who commit adultry. I cry poppycock to that one, friends! (before anyone gets in a huff I'm not promoting homosexuality or adultery nor do I take them lightly)

If we all agree that Jesus died for our sins, we must recognise it wasn't for some sins, or most sins, but ALL sins. That means homosexuality and adultery. To say that Jesus didn't die for these sins is to say that Jesus wasn't divine enough to defeat all sin -which is a bold face lie and a slap in the face.

And yes, I do believe that a Christian can commit sins repeatedly and still be Christians. It's called bondage. Just because we struggle with sin doesn't mean that we're not Christians- it means we're babes in Christ until He sets us free from these strongholds. We have to confess and do our best not to sin anymore because we love our God. The process of extracting sin from our lives is what brings us closer to God. The fact that sin is present in our lives (no matter what it is, there is no big or small sin) doesn't make us any less Christian if we accept Christ.

What Browncoat said...

 

[Slepsog4]

The passage in question was written to the church (ie, Christians) at Corinth about the former (ie, pre-conversion) lives. It says "such WERE some of you".

 

[shad]

Exactly. But if shad says Jesus was angry, even though the bible says nothing of the sort, then Jesus must have been angry .

Are you a little disgusted with me about the mood of Christ. In the stories that we have been talking about, if there was no indication that Jesus' mood was not angry and disgusted with the fear and doubt of His disciples, then what mood is indicated? Was He happy with them? Did He commend them for their fear and doubt? You mentioned that He might have been frustrated but not angry. Tell me how you know that He was frustrated, are you guessing or using deductive reasoning? You guys are so quick to discredit the fact that he might have been angry but offer no proof as to what His mood might have been.

It's important to know the mood of the one who is talking to you. How many times have we been chided on this site for how we come across and the way that we communicate to others. When your father asked you to do something and you have failed in that area before, you are going to take notice of his mood and tone of voice. Right? How many times growing up have we not taken our father's instructions seriously and gotten into trouble because of it. This boat episode with a rising storm of winds happened more than once and it revealed what was in the hearts of the disciples. When Jesus heard their response of fear when He was sleeping on the boat, I don't think he was very happy or cordial with their lack of faith in Him, but I am sure the disciples were stimulated and invigorated by what He said to them.

Sometimes we are angry on the inside but outwardly we restrain ourselves and communicate what needs to be said, but the whole time we are communicating we are angry in our heart. The heart can be angry but we deal according to wisdom. I see Jesus being angry in His heart but exercised Himself in wisdom without any compromise because He was dealing with their heart that was exceedingly fearful. Do we walk with God heart to heart or is our relationship with Him only superficial and religiously pseudo?

 

[Browncoat]

How many times growing up have we not taken our father's instructions seriously and gotten into trouble because of it.

My dad gets angry about everything. You could sneeze and he'd get angry with you for it. But most of my friends parents actually DON'T get angry with them when they don't take their instructions seriously. They get in trouble, yes, but their parents aren't angry. Instead, they use them as opportunities to teach their children.

This, I believe, is the exact same with Yeshua. He wasn't angry, he was teaching them. He knew they would react the way they did, so what's the point in being angry?

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

The passage in question was written to the church (ie, Christians) at Corinth about the former (ie, pre-conversion) lives. It says "such WERE some of you".

Yeah I'm actually a little angry about this because I didn't read the whole scripture in context until a week ago. Total contradiction of the cross and what salvation means.

 

[MahogonySnail]

That doesn't mean however, that if a Christian falls back into their former behaviour, that they are somehow immune or that those scriptures do not apply to them. . They are general statements of fact, that those practicing those things (the key word , is practicing), will not get to heaven. The very reason for Paul to write to them about it was partly to warn them about going back to their former behaviour. Paul elsewhere gives warnings about sowing the flesh:
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.


When Paul said "be not deceived", he is saying let no one think that an unrighteous person will get to heaven. That's a general statement that applies to christian or non-christian.

 

[VW]

Alright time to tell everyone what I think.

I think that this scripture is taken out of context a lot. Mostly when we talk about homosexuals, some are very quick to quote this saying that they aren't allowed in heaven at all . The same with people who commit adultry. I cry poppycock to that one, friends! (before anyone gets in a huff I'm not promoting homosexuality or adultery nor do I take them lightly)

If we all agree that Jesus died for our sins, we must recognise it wasn't for some sins, or most sins, but ALL sins. That means homosexuality and adultery. To say that Jesus didn't die for these sins is to say that Jesus wasn't divine enough to defeat all sin -which is a bold face lie and a slap in the face.

And yes, I do believe that a Christian can commit sins repeatedly and still be Christians. It's called bondage. Just because we struggle with sin doesn't mean that we're not Christians- it means we're babes in Christ until He sets us free from these strongholds. We have to confess and do our best not to sin anymore because we love our God. The process of extracting sin from our lives is what brings us closer to God. The fact that sin is present in our lives (no matter what it is, there is no big or small sin) doesn't make us any less Christian if we accept Christ.

forgiveness of sins is not salvation. if it was, then everyone is saved.

forgiveness of sins is so that we can enter into his presence.

 

[MahogonySnail]

What is a unrighteous person? An unrighteous person is someone whose sins are not covered by Christ's blood through faith in his sacrifice. All unbelievers are automatically unrighteous as they don't believe. Believers who commit gross sin, are not righteous as long as they continue in that sin (practice it). There are different types of sin, sins done in ignorance and unbelief, and sins done with purposeful intent.
This passage tells us clearly how God deals with unrighteousness in a believer:
Eze 18:26 When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done, he shall die.