A Misquoted Scripture?

[Dread_Zeppelin]

That doesn't mean however, that if a Christian falls back into their former behaviour, that they are somehow immune or that those scriptures do not apply to them. . They are general statements of fact, that those practicing those things (the key word , is practicing), will not get to heaven. The very reason for Paul to write to them about it was partly to warn them about going back to their former behaviour. Paul elsewhere gives warnings about sowing the flesh:
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.


When Paul said "be not deceived", he is saying let no one think that an unrighteous person will get to heaven. That's a general statement that applies to christian or non-christian.

I dont believe that. I don't think that we need to die being "good" to get to heaven, I believe in grace. If i were to die in bed commiting homosexuality I don't think I'd be in hell. I think I'd have to ask forgiveness for my obviously sinful nature but I wouldn't go to hell solely based on one moment. God doesn't demn people to hell because they're good or bad, he does so based on their relationship with Him. That's Santa Claus Christianity. "You better watch out because when you die if you're lying you're going to hell!" No. If you're a liar, you need to be set free. If you die lying and accepted Jesus in your heart, you are covered by Christ's blood that paid for your sins. Period.

Now I will say this :


12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil 2:12-13)

Not everyone who says they're a Christian is a Christian. I get that, I see it everyday. Part of being saved is striving to be more like Christ and I think that if you are stagnant and unsure of your salvation while doing these things there can be a problem. However, I do believe that Christians can sin repeatedly because they are addicted to their sins. There is a big difference between sinning because you dont care and sinning because you're weak and easily given into temptation. Some people really do have addictions to sin. Pornography, Drugs, Sex. They're hard to get over.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No where in scripture, does it say that grace and sin go hand in hand. It's one or the other. Paul addressed this common misconception right here:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Should we continue to live in sin so that God's grace will increase?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! We have died to sin---how then can we go on living in it?



Unrighteous is unrighteous. God is not going to be accepting a christian into heaven who is living in a homosexual relationship, for example. Otherwise He would have to accept all homosexuals into heaven.

don't think that we need to die being "good" to get to heaven

We need to be faithful and obedient. Goodness is implied if we live according to faith and obedience.

God doesn't demn people to hell because they're good or bad, he does so based on their relationship with Him.

Then why does He judge them based on they're good or bad and on what they DO ?:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne,
Mat 25:32 and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him. Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 He will put the righteous people at his right and the others at his left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to the people on his right, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world.
Mat 25:35 I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes,
Mat 25:36 naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.'
Mat 25:37 The righteous will then answer him, 'When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?'
Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these followers of mine, you did it for me!'
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!
Mat 25:42 I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they will answer him, 'When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you?'
Mat 25:45 The King will reply, 'I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.'
Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."



Did you read that right? It says if a person, anyone, refused to help even the least important child of God, they will go to eternal punishment. Jesus won't care how many creeds you can recite or what you believe, if you have not obeyed and done what He commanded you to do, you might as well be an unbeliever to Him.

 

[VW]

What is a unrighteous person? An unrighteous person is someone whose sins are not covered by Christ's blood through faith in his sacrifice. All unbelievers are automatically unrighteous as they don't believe. Believers who commit gross sin, are not righteous as long as they continue in that sin (practice it). There are different types of sin, sins done in ignorance and unbelief, and sins done with purposeful intent.
This passage tells us clearly how God deals with unrighteousness in a believer:
Eze 18:26 When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done, he shall die.

an unrighteous person is one who does not have the life of jesus.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And a person who has the life of Jesus does not practice unrighteousness.

 

[VW]

No where in scripture, does it say that grace and sin go hand in hand. It's one or the other. Paul addressed this common misconception right here:

john wrote that if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[VW]

And a person who has the life of Jesus does not practice unrighteousness.

unrighteousness is practiced, but righteousness is imputed. we do not have a righteousness of our own, but the righteousness that is of faith.

 

[VW]

No where in scripture, does it say that grace and sin go hand in hand. It's one or the other. Paul addressed this common misconception right here:

john wrote that if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

sorry about the bold, i could not get it to go in normal font.

 

[MahogonySnail]

John also wrote that he who practices sin is of the devil, and that righteousness is about what we DO in Christ:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.

unrighteousness is practiced, but righteousness is imputed. we do not have a righteousness of our own, but the righteousness that is of faith.

Amen, but the key thing to note is, practiced unrighteousness and imputed righteousness do not exist at the same time. We're either living in one state or the other. As the verses above show, if we have imputed righteousness we can't help but live a righteous life as well.

The key word is practicing. There are sins of weakness and ignorance.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

And a person who has the life of Jesus does not practice unrighteousness.

MS,

What is the point of the cross for you? Do you know what happened at all when Jesus died? Are you just waiting on a prayer that God doesn't judge you based on how good you are? Are you catholic?

No where in Christianity does it say that you have to be this good to enter heaven. You seem to completely bypass the love of Christ and His ability to forgive sin based on what happened on the cross. We are not to excuse sin, but be set free by it. Sin no longer can be grounds to demn us to hell because we have a loving relationship with our God who PAID FOR OUR SINS. He took our place so we didn't have to. This means that you can not rely on your works, or your lack thereof ,to get you into heaven.

Christians are people and we have sin nature. That is why we must have a personal relationship with Christ to get into heaven. Its not about what you don't do, it's about striving to be the best you can be and enjoying the life Christ has given us.

I'm not giving people a free ticket to sin (not at all) but to be demned to hell for it is unbiblical. As Christians we are set free by sin but that doesn't mean we dont do it. Sin has conciquences and it can be horrible but not hell worthy when you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[VW]

John also wrote that he who practices sin is of the devil, and that righteousness is about what we DO in Christ:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.








Amen, but the key thing to note is, practiced unrighteousness and imputed righteousness do not exist at the same time. We're either living in one state or the other. As the verses above show, if we have imputed righteousness we can't help but live a righteous life as well.

The key word is practicing. There are sins of weakness and ignorance.

well, i know where you are going, but the problem is that we now have a works based salvation. it should be remembered that the cross is still active in our lives, even to this day.

what we need to do is see salvation as it truly is, grace from god. it is not we who did anything, but god.

now i wish that i could walk in christ perfectly, all the time. i can't. can you?

if i am not in christ then i am in my unrighteousness. it is not what you do so much as who you are in.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It's not a works based salvation. You'll note that I talk about Christ and the cross and His blood. It's a faith and obedience-based salvation . And even that not of ourself, but of Christ's empowerment and enabling.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

It's not a works based salvation. You'll note that I talk about Christ and the cross and His blood. It's a faith and obedience-based salvation . And even that not of ourself, but of Christ's empowerment and enabling.

You may talk about it but it doesn't make sense. You dont mention faith at all. What part does faith play? How is faith justified when you believe that you have to be obedient all the time to get into heaven? What the heck is faith for? Faith in what? Ourselves?

Sorry, but all of our poo stinks friend.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No where in Christianity does it say that you have to be this good to enter heaven. You seem to completely bypass the love of Christ and His ability to forgive sin based on what happened on the cross. We are not to excuse sin, but be set free by it. Sin no longer can be grounds to demn us to hell because we have a loving relationship with our God who PAID FOR OUR SINS. He took our place so we didn't have to. This means that you can not rely on your works, or your lack thereof ,to get you into heaven.

Christians are people and we have sin nature. That is why we must have a personal relationship with Christ to get into heaven. Its not about what you don't do, it's about striving to be the best you can be and enjoying the life Christ has given us.

Everything sounded good except the bolded bit. I could refer you to the book of Revelation in JEsus's commending or not, the individual churches for their obedience and faith or lack thereof. The teachings of Christ regarding unfaithful servants in the gospels. Unfaithful servants are those who do not do what they're supposed to, and in many cases do things they are not supposed to. Based on this there will be some christian pastors and preachers in hell. There is also the sheep and the goats thing which I said before. I realise that how we live our life and what we do is just as important to God as what we believe.

I'm not giving people a free ticket to sin (not at all) but to be demned to hell for it is unbiblical. As Christians we are set free by sin but that doesn't mean we dont do it. Sin has conciquences and it can be horrible but not hell worthy when you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There's nothing in the particular sins paul mentions about people not inheriting the kingdom (another way to say they won't be going to heaven), that would suggest they do not apply to christians as well.
As it says in 1 John,

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.

I will not let you or anyone else deceive me, into thinking that he who does unrighteousness is righteous. .

 

[VW]

It's not a works based salvation. You'll note that I talk about Christ and the cross and His blood. It's a faith and obedience-based salvation . And even that not of ourself, but of Christ's empowerment and enabling.

now that is good, because in him we are righteous, but if we are not in him, we are not righteous.

so our obedience is easy, we be in christ.

 

[VW]

when we say even as he is righteous, it really is in his righteousness.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Everything sounded good except the bolded bit. I could refer you to the book of Revelation in JEsus's commending or not, the individual churches for their obedience and faith or lack thereof. The teachings of Christ regarding unfaithful servants in the gospels. Unfaithful servants are those who do not do what they're supposed to, and in many cases do things they are not supposed to. Based on this there will be some christian pastors and preachers in hell. There is also the sheep and the goats thing which I said before. I realise that how we live our life and what we do is just as important to God as what we believe.






There's nothing in the particular sins paul mentions about people not inheriting the kingdom (another way to say they won't be going to heaven), that would suggest they do not apply to christians as well.
As it says in 1 John,

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.

I will not let you or anyone else deceive me, into thinking that he who does unrighteousness is righteous. .

Wow I'm trying to deceive you? Kindly fall off that high pedestal and come down to reality. I almost became blind I rolled my eyes so hard.


Fact is I'm learning that you have no need for the cross and Jesus. Go ahead and choose to pick scriptures based off your "works alone" theory. I hope someone "deceives" you someday so that your world isn't based of being perfect all the time. It's such a waste really, because Christ did all that for you so you didn't have to. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[MahogonySnail]

You may talk about it but it doesn't make sense. You dont mention faith at all. What part does faith play? How is faith justified when you believe that you have to be obedient all the time to get into heaven? What the heck is faith for? Faith in what? Ourselves?

Sorry, but all of our poo stinks friend

I suppose the biggest problem is that you believe in an "if-less" version of christianity.

To be obedient is to have faith. To be obedient is also to do what Christ commands. He who loves God obeys His commands.

When God sends an unbeliever to hell for not believing in Him, He is not sending them to hell for their unbelief alone, but also for their disobedience in not accepting the call to trust Him.


The old testament gives us a nice picture of what disobedience means. To cut a long story short, it did not turn out well for disobedient (and unbelieving) Israel.

To put it another way, believing Israel was also obedient. And it's hard to separate faith and obedience. You asked what faith has to do with it? I hope this answered your questions.

Finally, there's an old familiar hymn which contains lots of scriptural truths, and it goes

1. When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
   What a glory He sheds on our way!
   While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
   And with all who will trust and obey.
   • Refrain:
     Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
     To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

1. Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
   But His smile quickly drives it away;
   Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
   Can abide while we trust and obey.

1. Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
   But our toil He doth richly repay;
   Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
   But is blessed if we trust and obey.

1. But we never can prove the delights of His love
   Until all on the altar we lay;
   For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
   Are for them who will trust and obey.

1. Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet,
   Or we’ll walk by His side in the way;
   What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
   Never fear, only trust and obey.

http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/Trust_and_Obey/

Sorry, but all of our poo stinks friend.

lol. True, but some people clean up their mess , and others don't . We want to be able to stand before God with a clean backside. God is not going to be saying, "well done good and faithful servant" to a believer, who lives in an adulterous relationship, for example.

 

[MahogonySnail]

when we say even as he is righteous, it really is in his righteousness.

Amen. His righteousness means our righteousness will shine even brighter. As it comes from Him not ourselves.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Wow I'm trying to deceive you? Kindly fall off that high pedestal and come down to reality. I almost became blind I rolled my eyes so hard.

Anyone who teaches a deceptive doctrine, is being deceitful. I am glad that I know 1 John 3:7 otherwise I might be convinced that a person can live unrighteouslessly and still be righteous at the same time.

Fact is I'm learning that you have no need for the cross and Jesus. Go ahead and choose to pick scriptures based off your "works alone" theory. I hope someone "deceives" you someday so that your world isn't based of being perfect all the time. It's such a waste really, because Christ did all that for you so you didn't have to. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

I believe in Jesus Christ alone for our justification, sanctification, perfection, and holiness.
But I don't believe scripture teaches that those facts are merely wishful thinking, and have no positive effects on our own lives, such as an obedience to do His will, etc etc. When a person says a person can be living in sin and still be justified, sanctified, perfected and holy, there is something wrong with that idea. Even a non-christian can spot it, which is a common argument by atheists for example that christians are hypocrites. What the bible teaches is that if a person is justified, sanctified, perfected, and holy, they will NOT be living in sin. I realise that after being told all your life that if you believe such and such you are saved no matter what, any view contrary to this might seem harsh, works based or wrong, but if you do honestly search christian belief over the past 2000 years, and a few of those tricky verses that many like to ignore, the picture becomes clearer. I'd also like to point out that protestant denominations such as Anglican (and which I guess has shaped my views the most) is different to the common evangelical mold of "do what you like you are saved anyway".

 

[VW]

now i want to throw a wrench into this whole thing. anyone interested in hearing a testimony that is exactly about this subject?