a Question for the Premillennialists

[eternally-gratefull]

here is it..

stood before the woman (Israel) which was ready to be
delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she (Israel) brought forth a man child (Christ), who was to
rule all

earth, he persecuted the woman (Church) which brought
forth
the man child (Christ).
And to the woman (Church) were given two wings of a
great
eagle, that she (Church) might fly into the wilderness,
into her

Thanks for proving me right.

You see, I have an open heart. I am not looking blind.

Look at your error.

In one part. You claim Israel was the woman who birthed Christ.

Yet in another, you claim it is the church who birthed Christ.

They both can't have given birth to Christ.

You just contradicted yourself. And forced God to contradict himself.

Fact. Israel gave birth to Christ.

Fact, Christ birthed the church.

Fact. IsreaL Birthed Christ, Who in turn birthed the church (the offspring)

Here is the truth.

16 But the earth helped the woman (Israel), and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon (satan) had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman (Israel), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (Church), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now answer me my friend.

How can the church be the woman who is protected, AND THE OFFSPRING?

 

[cronjecj]

In one part. You claim Israel was the woman who birthed Christ.

Yet in another, you claim it is the church who birthed Christ.

..Spiritual Israel became the Church AFTER Christ ascended into heaven.

 

[cronjecj]

][/B]Here is the truth.

16 But the earth helped the woman (Israel), and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon (satan) had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman (Israel), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (Church), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How can the church be the woman who is protected, AND THE OFFSPRING?

NO

ISRAEL brought forth CHRIST,
CHRIST brought forth CHURCH,
CHURCH brought forth DISCIPLES.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NO

ISRAEL brought forth CHRIST,
CHRIST brought forth CHURCH,
CHURCH brought forth DISCIPLES.

Yes, Isreal brought forth Christ (gave birth)
Yes, Christ brought forth the church (Gave birth)

Which is EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. So your agreeing with me now??

Which means the "woman" who gave birth to Christ is Israel. And can NOT BE THE CHURCH.

which means, Rev 12 MUST be interpreted this way!

13 Now when the dragon (satan) saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman (ISRAEL) who gave birth to the male Child. (Christ) 14 But the woman (Israel) was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she (Israel) is nourished for a time and times and half a time, (3 1/2 years) from the presence of the serpent. (Satan) 15 So the serpent (Satan) spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman (Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman (Israel) , and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon (Satan) was enraged with the woman (Israel) , and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The Church)

There is NO OTHER Way to interpret it. Unless you think anyone other than the church has the testimony of Christ. but is not the woman.


Church brought forth disciples? A disciple IS the church, so have no clue what you mean.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

..Spiritual Israel became the Church AFTER Christ ascended into heaven.

Yet Physical Isreal ( the woman) remained. It is SHE Who gave birth to Christ.

A Child can not give birth to a parent now can they?

Christ bore the church. The church thus CAN NOT HAVE GIVEN BIRTH TO CHRIST.

 

[cronjecj]

Church brought forth disciples? A disciple IS the church, so have no clue what you mean.

Israel becomes Church after Christ in Rev 12.

the Church does bring forth disciples who has the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church is the body of MANY disciples thus making it the remnant of her seed (Disciples).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel becomes Church after Christ in Rev 12.

the Church does bring forth disciples who has the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church is the body of MANY disciples thus making it the remnant of her seed (Disciples).

Yet Paul separates Israel and the church in Romans 11. This Israel and the church are different. Paul prophesies Israel will be saved at a future date.

As does the OT.

Either way, ISRAEL Gave birth to Christ, NOT THE CHURCH.

If God wanted us to interpret the second woman in romans 12 as the church, He would have said, the daughter, who the child birthed. For the church is the daughter.

You still have not explained who the offspring of the woman is, who has the testimony of Christ.

It can't be Israel. She is the one who Birthed Christ. and if as you say, Christ birthed the church. It can't be the church.

 

[cronjecj]

Yet Paul separates Israel and the church in Romans 11. This Israel and the church are different. Paul prophesies Israel will be saved at a future date.

As does the OT.

Either way, ISRAEL Gave birth to Christ, NOT THE CHURCH.

If God wanted us to interpret the second woman in romans 12 as the church, He would have said, the daughter, who the child birthed. For the church is the daughter.

You still have not explained who the offspring of the woman is, who has the testimony of Christ.

It can't be Israel. She is the one who Birthed Christ. and if as you say, Christ birthed the church. It can't be the church.

oh my...

i told you, the disciples are the remnant of the Church seed.

the Church is a body of MANY disciples.

..and WHERE did i say the Church brought forth Christ??

 

[cronjecj]

Yet Paul separates Israel and the church in Romans 11. This Israel and the church are different. Paul prophesies Israel will be saved at a future date.

the Church is true Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh my...

i told you, the disciples are the remnant of the Church seed.

the Church is a body of MANY disciples.

Yes, Oh my. Every man woman and child who is in the church IS A DISCIPLE! A disciple of Christ is not an offspring of the church, THEY ARE THE CHURCH

..and WHERE did i say the Church brought forth Christ??

Originally Posted by cronjecj

here is it..

stood before the woman (Israel) which was ready to be
delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she (Israel) brought forth a man child (Christ), who was to
rule all

earth, he persecuted the woman (Church) which brought
forth the man child (Christ).

 

[cronjecj]

earth, he persecuted the woman (Church) which brought
forth the man child (Christ).

oh my x2

..this happened when i changed Israel to Church after Christ...and missed the one line (my bad)

earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought
forth
the man child (Christ).

..happy now?

 

[mpaper345]

Revelation chapter 20 follows chapter 19 of things that happen.

In chapter 19,John says he sees much people in heaven.

Then Jesus comes back to earth with the armies of heaven,people,and fights the world and defeats them,which is the 6th wrath of God,the battle of Armageddon.

This battle could not of happened in the past for Jesus comes with His saints to fight,and defeats the world.

After this battle,which did not happen in the past,then,then,then,the devil is bound in chains and cast in to the bottomless pit,and Christ and the saints rule for 1000 years.

The 1000 years happens after Jesus defeats the world.

The same is recorded in Zechariah 14.

The world attacks Israel.
God comes back with His saints and defeats the world,and the world has to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship God.

 

[cronjecj]

Revelation chapter 20 follows chapter 19 of things that happen.

In chapter 19,John says he sees much people in heaven.

Then Jesus comes back to earth with the armies of heaven,people,and fights the world and defeats them,which is the 6th wrath of God,the battle of Armageddon.

This battle could not of happened in the past for Jesus comes with His saints to fight,and defeats the world.

After this battle,which did not happen in the past,then,then,then,the devil is bound in chains and cast in to the bottomless pit,and Christ and the saints rule for 1000 years.

The 1000 years happens after Jesus defeats the world.

The same is recorded in Zechariah 14.

The world attacks Israel.
God comes back with His saints and defeats the world,and the world has to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship God.

so Jesus is coming a third time then?

according to you: 1st coming, 2nd coming, 1000 years, judgment.

according to the parable of the wheat and the tares: 1st coming, 1000 years, 2nd coming, judgement.

 

[AnandaHya]

actually I believe it is 1st coming 1000 years, Satan's deception of the nations to war against God,

judgment or destruction of the old world (wheat and tares parable) , 2nd coming: New Earth and New Heaven.

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so Jesus is coming a third time then?

according to you: 1st coming, 2nd coming, 1000 years, judgment.

according to the parable of the wheat and the tares: 1st coming, 1000 years, 2nd coming, judgement.

actually it is 2 comings.

1 coming to set up his spiritual kingdom (via the cross)
2 coming to set up his earthly kingdom ( 1000 years in length)

there is no third coming. He destroys the final battle while he is already here. then comes judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh my x2

..this happened when i changed Israel to Church after Christ...and missed the one line (my bad)

earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought
forth
the man child (Christ).

..happy now?

Happy now?

so satan go after Israel, and because God is protecting isreal, he goes after the church.. when has this happened?

 

[AnandaHya]

where as I believe God destroys Satan from HEAVEN and does not come to Earth until the NEW Jerusalem comes down from Heaven after the NEW Earth is established. No Earthly kingdom until AFTER Judgement and destruction of all things unclean and unholy.

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

where as I believe God destroys Satan from HEAVEN and does not come to Earth until the NEW Jerusalem comes down from Heaven after the NEW Earth is established. No Earthly kingdom until AFTER Judgement and destruction of all things unclean and unholy.

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This makes no sense. Christ comes and destroyes evil. And binds satan and the false prophet in the bottomless pit. Then establishes a 1000 years.

Then Satan is released, again decieves the nations (like he has since the bigining of time up till today) and convinces some army to follow him. THEN fire is destroyed. and a new eternal (not 1000 year) kingdom is formed when Christ rules from the NEW jerusalem, which is NOT EVEN ON EARTH.

 

[AnandaHya]

Happy now?

so satan go after Israel, and because God is protecting isreal, he goes after the church.. when has this happened?

Acts 20
17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[c] which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. 34 Yes,[d] you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. 35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Galatians 1
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter,[a] and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

 

[AnandaHya]

This makes no sense. Christ comes and destroyes evil. And binds satan and the false prophet in the bottomless pit. Then establishes a 1000 years.

Then Satan is released, again decieves the nations (like he has since the bigining of time up till today) and convinces some army to follow him. THEN fire is destroyed. and a new eternal (not 1000 year) kingdom is formed when Christ rules from the NEW jerusalem, which is NOT EVEN ON EARTH.

that is because you inserted things.

for example the False prophet was cast into the FIRE. only Satan was tossed into the bottomless pit...

did you not read Revelations 21 when NEW Jerusalem descended from Heaven to Earth?

Jesus is NOW ruling there in HEAVEN but when HE destroys Satan after he has been released ,then He will destroy the world and make a NEW Earth and a NEW Heaven.

Its what the BIBLE clearly states. Just read Revelation 20-22

people like to forget that after the 1000 years SATAN IS RELEASED and there is a battle where JESUS sends FIRE FROM HEAVEN to destroy them.

So whether you believe the 1000 years is past present or future there is still a period AFTER that time when Satan deceives people before GOD judges and destroy this old world and replaces it.