A Tale of Two Cities - Or Just the One?

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Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#1
The identity of the whore in the book of Revelation is claimed by many as the Roman Catholic church and this was the view of early protestant reformers in one of their justifications of the split with Rome.

But does the description of the whore in the book of Revelation match the RC church?


(Rev 18:20 KJV) Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

What city or nation was to be avenged with the blood of the apostles and prophets?

(Mat 23:34 KJV) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

As can be seen from Jesus' statement that it was Apostate Israel in the 1st century AD that was to be held guilty of the blood of the prophets and they would be avenged and "All these things shall come upon this generation."

How can it be said that the Roman Catholic church is the whore of Babylon when all of scripture points to apostate Israel of the 1st century AD, the generation to whom the Lord Jesus came?

How can the blood guilt of Israel be transferred to another "body" such as the RC church - there is no logic to that thinking. It is a total twisting and denial of the bible to claim that anything other than Israel of the 1st century AD is the object of scripture and prophecies including the Book of Revelation.

Jesus plainly states "upon you" the - "YOU" is Israel he's leveling this statements.

(Deu 32:32 KJV) For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

Compare the above with what John states in Revelation:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


(Isa 5:1 KJV) Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

(Isa 5:2 KJV) And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

(Isa 5:5 KJV) And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down

Compare the above from Isaiah with what John states in Revelation:

(Rev 14:19 KJV) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

From the above we see that Isreal of the 1st centuy AD was the final crop of the "vine of Sodom" and their city is spiritually called Sodom.

Jesus repeats the vine motif in his speech here:

(Mat 21:33 KJV) Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it (Isa 5:2 And he fenced it), round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower (Isa 5:2 a tower in the midst of it), and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

(Mat 21:34 KJV) And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

(Mat 21:35 KJV) And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

(Mat 21:36 KJV) Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

(Mat 21:37 KJV) But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

(Mat 21:38 KJV) But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

(Mat 21:39 KJV) And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

(Mat 21:40 KJV) When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

(Mat 21:41 KJV) They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

(Mat 21:43 KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,674
3,854
113
#2
From the free on line dictionary web site:

co·nun·drum (kə-nŭn′drəm)n.1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma: "


In all honesty and sincerity, and with no hint of being "snide," when I come upon such as this in Scripture, I remember what is recorded in Revelation..................


Revelation
10



1 .) And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 .) And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 .) And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 .) And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

I believe God intended for SOME THINGS to remain a "mystery" UNTIL they are REVEALED in His time.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,794
2,646
113
#3
From the free on line dictionary web site:

co·nun·drum (kə-nŭn′drəm)n.1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma: "


In all honesty and sincerity, and with no hint of being "snide," when I come upon such as this in Scripture, I remember what is recorded in Revelation..................


Revelation
10



1 .) And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 .) And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 .) And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 .) And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

I believe God intended for SOME THINGS to remain a "mystery" UNTIL they are REVEALED in His time.
But rehbein, don't you understand? It was revealed all in 70 AD?:confused:
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,674
3,854
113
#4
But rehbein, don't you understand? It was revealed all in 70 AD?:confused:
(note to self: Remind Crossnote to refer back to my original comment on this thread.....)

:)

Hey Cross...........there was something I wanted to tell ya.......no, wait, it'll come to me......
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#5
(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
The scope of the Matthew verse is people from Abel to Zacharias.

The scope of the Revelation verse is, ALL that were slain upon the Earth.
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#6
The scope of the Matthew verse is people from Abel to Zacharias.

The scope of the Revelation verse is, ALL that were slain upon the Earth.
Not really, Jesus said that Jerusalem, would also persecute and kill his apostles, prophets etc:

(Mat 23:33 KJV) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

(Mat 23:34 KJV) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

To take the ALL "slain upon the Earth" out it's covenant context is without any contextual reason, except to put the events 1980+ years.

(1 Th 2:15 KJV) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

(1 Th 2:16 KJV) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

"wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" happened in 70AD

(Mat 23:30 KJV) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

(Mat 23:31 KJV) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

(Mat 23:32 KJV) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers
.

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Unless some one can prove that there are two separate judgments for killing the same prophets of Abel to Zechariah and and those that come after the 1st century then the only conclusion is that 1st century Israel is in view in both Matt and Revelation.
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#7
I believe God intended for SOME THINGS to remain a "mystery" UNTIL they are REVEALED in His time.
Lets look at the whole context:

(Rev 10:1 KJV) And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

(Rev 10:2 KJV) And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

(Rev 10:3 KJV) And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

(Rev 10:4 KJV) And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

(Rev 10:5 KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

(Rev 10:6 KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

(Rev 10:7 KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(Rev 10:8 KJV) And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

(Rev 10:9 KJV) And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

(Rev 10:10 KJV) And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

(Rev 10:11 KJV) And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

"the mystery of God should be finished" and the sealing of the thunders seems to be related - what mystery of God he is speaking of?

Most likely related to what Paul is staying:

(Eph 3:4 KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

(Eph 3:5 KJV) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(Eph 3:6 KJV) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(Rev 10:11 KJV) And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Unless someone can posit a mechanism whereby John can prophesy again before many peoples etc. then the conclusion is John prophesied again before his due date was up.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,674
3,854
113
#8
doesn't alter my comment or my thoughts.......but, thanks........and I did read the totality of the Scriptures..........