Accepted by God. If?

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Dec 29, 2022
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#1
Genesis 4:3- 7 And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou do not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shall rule over him.
Both Cain and Abel had a choice, but Cain brought the wrong sacrifice.
God is not willing that anyone perish but should come to repentance...... In these times the whole world has a choice to believe and trust fully in the sacrifice that God gave through Christ. (Repent and believe the gospel). He's calling all men everywhere to repent!
 

Papermonkey

Active member
Dec 2, 2022
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#2
In the book of Leviticus there are 16 different occasions or references whereon the aroma of the roasting flesh and blood of innocent sacrificed animals are reported as pleasing to God.

Why would innocent animals need be slaughtered to pay God in their blood so to forgive human sins?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
46,175
20,044
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#3

Jesus' Words in John 6:65
:)
 

persistent

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2022
2,364
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Chicago
#4
Both Cain and Abel had a choice, but Cain brought the wrong sacrifice.
MacLaren seems to give a fair assessment of the situation and hover over the scriptures he references. My opinion is here too.

Seems the offering itself was not rejected. I am guessing that the type of offering at this time was not specified. Maybe Cain's attitude was the problem. I get the sense that Cain was 'prideful' and base this on the statement attributed to Genesis 4:6Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
The anger was the result of Cain's pride being wounded or possibly envious of Able's offering being accepted.

Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Genesis 4 MacLaren Expositions Of Holy Scripture (biblehub.com)

2. Sin here appears as having power to bar men’s way to God. Much ingenuity has been spent on the question why Abel’s offering was accepted and Cain’s rejected. But the narrative itself shows in the words of Jehovah, ‘If thou doest well, is there not acceptance?’ that the reason lay in Cain’s evil deeds. So, in 1 John 3:12, the fratricide is put down to the fact that ‘his works were evil, and his brother’s righteous’; and Hebrews 11:4 differs from this view only in making the ground of righteousness prominent, when it ascribes the acceptableness of Abel’s offering to faith. Both these passages are founded on the narrative, and we need not seek farther for the reason of the different reception of the two offerings. Character, then, or, more truly, faith, which is the foundation of a righteous character, determines the acceptableness of worship. Cain’s offering had no sense of dependence, no outgoing of love and trust, no adoration,-though it may have had fear,-and no moral element. So it had no sweet odour for God.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
3,872
1,676
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#5
Prophecy is unique.
In scriptures it can be one of three:
Calls for piety and basic preaching.
Forth telling (knowledge of current situation)
Foretelling events of the future.
The tellings have a specific format that is always present in each of these.

One of the most unique type of prophecies is Jonah's prophecy. (Although there are several instances of this particular foretelling)

And the formula distills down to: "When "x" happens then "y" will happen afterwards.

However....that's not Jonah's prophecy.
Jonah's was "When "x" happens if you do "y" then the result will be "z" and will avoid "A".
And in the case of Jonah the community did do "y" and the result was "z"....until much much later when they stopped "y" and the result was "A".

Now....otherwise long term prophecies are finalities...they are truth telling. There is no choice because of the focus of them. Because the focus is about having HOPE regardless of the circumstances. It's not about the despair....it's about hope.
 
N

notonmywatch

Guest
#6
In the book of Leviticus there are 16 different occasions or references whereon the aroma of the roasting flesh and blood of innocent sacrificed animals are reported as pleasing to God.

Why would innocent animals need be slaughtered to pay God in their blood so to forgive human sins?
The answer to your question is found here:

Hebrews 9

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

In order for a testament to be of force, the testator needs to die. Under the Old Testament, animals were slain, foreshadowing the death of the coming Messiah, and their deaths made that testament of force. Under the New Testament, Christ, our testator, died to make that testament of force that we might be beneficiaries of that testament or receive our eternal inheritance.
 

The_Watchers_2017

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2022
1,966
504
113
#7
Genesis 4:3- 7 And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou do not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shall rule over him.
Both Cain and Abel had a choice, but Cain brought the wrong sacrifice.
God is not willing that anyone perish but should come to repentance...... In these times the whole world has a choice to believe and trust fully in the sacrifice that God gave through Christ. (Repent and believe the gospel). He's calling all men everywhere to repent!
This is rather easy to understand. God wants to be FIRST and FOREMOST in our lives and does not want to be second best. Just look at what you have written here:

Cain brought his offering or not his best possible offering

Abel gave God the FIRSTLING or the FIRST of His Blessings.

It's like paying Tithes. You get your paycheck and the FIRST 10% should go directly to what is MOST VALUABLE in your life, which should be God! I don't miss Bill payments, or am short on food, or don't have a place to stay or don't have a reliable vehicle because I don't pay my Bills first, I give to GOD what is His, the FIRST 10% and then God provides for me to pay the rest.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
8,193
3,170
113
#10

Jesus' Words in John 6:65
:)
He has enables us

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyone who hears that has been given a choice whether they believe or not is between them and the lord it’s not that we aren’t able to be saved it’s that we reject the savior offering salvation

just as when he walked among men some see and hear Jesus and they believe others see and hear the same Jesus and refuse to believe

its not inability anymore all men everywhere are commanded to repent and believe the gospel some will some won’t

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

she’s not only waiting for some to repent and be saved his Will is that we all will but it’s on us to choose him when we hear the gospel

He’s being patient with all people because the gospel is able to save them all which is his Will

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Anyone who hears the gospel has salvstion offered freely to them some imply treat that truth as if it’s irrelevant others see it as eternal life with the lord after we die and part this world

The gospel can save anyone if they hear and believe
 
Dec 29, 2022
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#11
I know that these animals were innocent and had no choice, but I have to look at the big picture. God's ways are higher than ours and His judgments are true. "Almost all things by Law are purged with blood" without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."
If man never sinned, we wouldn't have had to kill innocent animals. More importantly I see the sacrifice of an innocent animal as a picture of the sinless Son of man who offered His Body for the sins of many. I think that's why God's wrath is upon those who do not obey the Gospel of Grace, because according to Titus 2,11 The grace God that bringeth salvation has appeared unto all men.
Just a thought but,
What about the slaughter of innocent animal for the sake of eating? Should we avoid eating for the sake of the animal? Some in the new age would certainly push it. Definitely we should take care of the life of our beast, but when it comes down to it God has given us dominion over the beast for our survival, Thankfully! Gen. 9:2
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
5,587
1,605
113
#12
This is rather easy to understand. God wants to be FIRST and FOREMOST in our lives and does not want to be second best. Just look at what you have written here:

Cain brought his offering or not his best possible offering

Abel gave God the FIRSTLING or the FIRST of His Blessings.

It's like paying Tithes. You get your paycheck and the FIRST 10% should go directly to what is MOST VALUABLE in your life, which should be God! I don't miss Bill payments, or am short on food, or don't have a place to stay or don't have a reliable vehicle because I don't pay my Bills first, I give to GOD what is His, the FIRST 10% and then God provides for me to pay the rest.
I may be out of line here but i do believe abel gave God what was required. I dont see tithing in this illustration.
Cain brought forth the work of his hands...but abel brought what was required.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
2,567
658
113
#13
A different perspective might be found in the introduction to the brothers' account that states, " Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, while Cain was a tiller of the soil."
What strikes you when comparing the "skin in the game" one puts into the harvest from a "tiller of the soil" and a "keeper of sheep"? and the influence that 'skin' might have on the 'fatness' of the harvest?
My first thought is that the hardest work tilling the soil is, well, tilling the soil and the sun and rain would do the majority of the work from there but, personally, I would encounter the risk of becoming overly attached to my sheep by a greater degree than my tomato plants, however lovely they might turn out to be.
Still, God implied that Cain could do right by proposing a better outcome if he would (care to?), without any implication about a switch in profession so, imo, lovelier (more cared for) tomatoes might, indeed, have been acceptable.
 

Papermonkey

Active member
Dec 2, 2022
724
249
43
#14
The answer to your question is found here:

Hebrews 9

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

In order for a testament to be of force, the testator needs to die. Under the Old Testament, animals were slain, foreshadowing the death of the coming Messiah, and their deaths made that testament of force. Under the New Testament, Christ, our testator, died to make that testament of force that we might be beneficiaries of that testament or receive our eternal inheritance.
That really isn't the answer to the question.
Surrogate slaughter for sins that exist because God initiated the entire process implanting a law the first of us could never consciously obey.

There's more to the scripture than what's written.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
9,766
7,366
113
#15
Genesis 4:3- 7 And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou do not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shall rule over him.
Both Cain and Abel had a choice, but Cain brought the wrong sacrifice.
God is not willing that anyone perish but should come to repentance...... In these times the whole world has a choice to believe and trust fully in the sacrifice that God gave through Christ. (Repent and believe the gospel). He's calling all men everywhere to repent!
Amen.(y)

Cain's greatest error and downfall here at this time was to refuse to repent. Mistakes are unavoidable, but hardening one's heart is inexcusable. The time to repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation is now.
 

Ted01

Active member
May 14, 2022
264
105
43
#16
Genesis 4:3- 7 And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou do not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shall rule over him.
Both Cain and Abel had a choice, but Cain brought the wrong sacrifice.
God is not willing that anyone perish but should come to repentance...... In these times the whole world has a choice to believe and trust fully in the sacrifice that God gave through Christ. (Repent and believe the gospel). He's calling all men everywhere to repent!
Just wondering... Why do say that Cain brought "the wrong sacrifice"?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
9,766
7,366
113
#17
In the book of Leviticus there are 16 different occasions or references whereon the aroma of the roasting flesh and blood of innocent sacrificed animals are reported as pleasing to God.

Why would innocent animals need be slaughtered to pay God in their blood so to forgive human sins?
Very good question with a very good answer.

Sin is a very grievous thing. It is the rebellion of the created against its Creator. The penalty and payment therefore must likewise be a grievous thing. The severity of the penalty (animal sacrifice) sheds light on the severity of the trespass. Animal sacrifice is not supposed to be a pleasant thing. That is part of what makes it a sacrifice. It is good that you see it as a terrible thing. I would be concerned for anyone who viewed it otherwise.

Jesus' death on the cross was a horrific event also. It could be said that he is the animal's saviour as well as ours.

the aroma of the roasting flesh and blood of innocent sacrificed animals are reported as pleasing to God.
God was looking ahead at the great victory His dear Son was going to win over sin and death (and suffering).

I think God loves animals just like we do. It was temporary but necessary, just like Jesus' suffering on the cross. It is a wake-up call to show sinners the severity of their sinfulness.

Both people and animals suffer every day but, thanks to Jesus, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Papermonkey

Active member
Dec 2, 2022
724
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#18
Very good question with a very good answer.

Sin is a very grievous thing. It is the rebellion of the created against its Creator. The penalty and payment therefore must likewise be a grievous thing. The severity of the penalty (animal sacrifice) sheds light on the severity of the trespass. Animal sacrifice is not supposed to be a pleasant thing. That is part of what makes it a sacrifice. It is good that you see it as a terrible thing. I would be concerned for anyone who viewed it otherwise.

Jesus' death on the cross was a horrific event also. It could be said that he is the animal's saviour as well as ours.



God was looking ahead at the great victory His dear Son was going to win over sin and death (and suffering).

I think God loves animals just like we do. It was temporary but necessary, just like Jesus' suffering on the cross. It is a wake-up call to show sinners the severity of their sinfulness.

Both people and animals suffer every day but, thanks to Jesus, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
That animals lives are taken to pay for our sins makes no sense.
Especially in light of recalling God's command to Abraham to kill his son.

''The wages of sin is death.'' Sin costs a life.
Humans sin, not animals. Human life is the cost, wage, for human sin.

Which is why Jesus was the last human sacrifice for the sins of man.

God's laws were prosecuted at the cost of human sinners lives.
 
Dec 29, 2022
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#19
Just wondering... Why do say that Cain brought "the wrong sacrifice"?
I'm not sure if "wrong sacrifice" is the correct terminology. I'm only addressing the fact that Cain sacrifice was not acceptable to God.
I don't see where God commanded a specific sacrifice, but maybe like the brother said, God was looking for Cains first and best. I don't know, but There's not a lot of details in the story. It does sort of speak of how we fall short of God's glory even in our attempts to please the Father without allowing Him to will in us to do of His good pleasure.
Maybe we could look at the fall Adam and Eve and get a glimpse.....Gen.3:7 how they sewed fig leaves together and made loin clothes because they knew they were naked. That didn't seem acceptable to God, so ...God made Adam and his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
Just my thoughts on it. What is your thought and how do you see things?
 

Ted01

Active member
May 14, 2022
264
105
43
#20
I'm not sure if "wrong sacrifice" is the correct terminology. I'm only addressing the fact that Cain sacrifice was not acceptable to God.
I don't see where God commanded a specific sacrifice, but maybe like the brother said, God was looking for Cains first and best. I don't know, but There's not a lot of details in the story. It does sort of speak of how we fall short of God's glory even in our attempts to please the Father without allowing Him to will in us to do of His good pleasure.
Maybe we could look at the fall Adam and Eve and get a glimpse.....Gen.3:7 how they sewed fig leaves together and made loin clothes because they knew they were naked. That didn't seem acceptable to God, so ...God made Adam and his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
Just my thoughts on it. What is your thought and how do you see things?
Well, like you, I'm in the Learning Stage... not the Teaching Stage, lol.
But, for myself, I'm convinced that Scripture makes it clear that works have little or nothing to do with Salvation.

So, in regard to Cain's sacrifice, I lean towards the idea that Cain's heart wasn't right... in some form or fashion.

I'm hesitant to believe that God was accepting/not accepting Adam & Eve's covering of themselves... I don't think that He was being critical of them at all. (Hope that makes sense?)
But would consider the possibility that God was introducing the concept that only blood could atone for sin.