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M
There is nothing in scripture that says Satan no longer has access to heaven. Therefore it stands that he still does....and not so much 'heaven' for there can be no evil there, but he has access to the 'Courtroom of God'. This is not a specific place, Biblically, but read in Job:
Now there was a day when the (M)sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, [it does not say 'in heaven', but only that it is somewhere] and [a]Satan also came among them. [in which Satan could converse with and be in the presence of the Lord.]
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "(N)From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." And he's still doing that today.
Maggie
Now there was a day when the (M)sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, [it does not say 'in heaven', but only that it is somewhere] and [a]Satan also came among them. [in which Satan could converse with and be in the presence of the Lord.]
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "(N)From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." And he's still doing that today.
Maggie
G
That could be but I see it a bit differently, when one presents themselves before a king/president, wouldn't they be doing it in in the kings domain? I think God dwells in His Heavenly place on His throne and that is the most likely place they present themselves before Him....doesn't really matter either way does it
G
according to The Word those "muscles" are available to us right now...we are to put on The Armour of God daily.
as for the tempter disappearing, according to The Word he will be bound up for a season then let loose for a short period after which he will be bound for all eternity which for us he will have disappeared as we will no longer have to be hindered by him and his followers...out of sight out of mind, so to speak.
as for the tempter disappearing, according to The Word he will be bound up for a season then let loose for a short period after which he will be bound for all eternity which for us he will have disappeared as we will no longer have to be hindered by him and his followers...out of sight out of mind, so to speak.
E
If you read about Jesus sending out the 72, the context of this verse, they were sent to tell of Jesus' coming to the various towns they were sent to. They were given several commands by Jesus as to what to say.
Luke 10:17 -
The seventy-two returned with jow and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.
I see two parts happening here; the actual story of the power of God in the telling of Jesus' announcement of arrival, but also an echo of Jesus' arrival on Earth and the subsequent defeat of Satan.
Moreover, my NIV study Bible says (in reference to verse 18):
"10:18 Satan fall. Even the demons were driven out by the disciples (v. 17), which meant that Satan was suffering defeat."
I think Jesus was saying, and my study Bible is saying, that He was describing Satan's defeat in that moment and overall. His "falling like lightning" may have been imagery, or maybe Satan was in talks with God and was told, more or less, "No", and really did fall like lightning at that time.
Luke 10:17 -
The seventy-two returned with jow and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.
I see two parts happening here; the actual story of the power of God in the telling of Jesus' announcement of arrival, but also an echo of Jesus' arrival on Earth and the subsequent defeat of Satan.
Moreover, my NIV study Bible says (in reference to verse 18):
"10:18 Satan fall. Even the demons were driven out by the disciples (v. 17), which meant that Satan was suffering defeat."
I think Jesus was saying, and my study Bible is saying, that He was describing Satan's defeat in that moment and overall. His "falling like lightning" may have been imagery, or maybe Satan was in talks with God and was told, more or less, "No", and really did fall like lightning at that time.
I
Revelation 12:1-12
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
My answer is no. The moment Christ presented Himself to His Father spotless, there was no longer a place for him there.
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
My answer is no. The moment Christ presented Himself to His Father spotless, there was no longer a place for him there.
Did you know that there is no Satan figure as understood in the New Testament in the Old Testament? The term Satan comes from the Hebrew word הַשָׂטָן, Ha Satan, which means the accuser. The accuser is an angel that does not produce evil, but rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things.
Also, where in the bible does it say the "Courtroom of God?" I would like to see that.
Also, where in the bible does it say the "Courtroom of God?" I would like to see that.
E
Wow. So many problems here. I'm not contesting your knowledge of Hebrew, because I don't know any. (Wasn't the NT written largely in Greek? Or were English Bibles translated from Greek? I know Greek is important to the Bible somehow...)
My understanding of Satan, in both OT and NT, is that he is a fallen angel. I don't see how that's different than "the accuser is an angel". In most cases, you're probably right that Satan points out sinful nature in humankind, but you forget that he put it there. In the garden of Eden, it was Satan who tempted Adam and Eve, two perfect human beings, without the knowledge of good and evil, but who were given free will. At that time, they had no sinful nature; it was Satan who led them to eat the fruit, not themselves.
Whether it's traditional Satan or Ha-Satan, he does have power. We know from other stories in God's Word that angels are quite powerful. Satan is described as a fallen angel and you described Ha-Satan as an angel, so either way, he does have his own power.
My understanding of Satan, in both OT and NT, is that he is a fallen angel. I don't see how that's different than "the accuser is an angel". In most cases, you're probably right that Satan points out sinful nature in humankind, but you forget that he put it there. In the garden of Eden, it was Satan who tempted Adam and Eve, two perfect human beings, without the knowledge of good and evil, but who were given free will. At that time, they had no sinful nature; it was Satan who led them to eat the fruit, not themselves.
Whether it's traditional Satan or Ha-Satan, he does have power. We know from other stories in God's Word that angels are quite powerful. Satan is described as a fallen angel and you described Ha-Satan as an angel, so either way, he does have his own power.
Just trying to give another point of veiw,from what I have been able to grasp from my studies,it would seem to me that just as the FATHER is not on Earth Physically at this time, neither is satan Physicaly,YET! There is a moment set in time for Michael the Arch Angel to Physically cast him down to the Earth,(The Day of Jacobs Trouble) Man what a SHOW;666; That is why after a short period of time, after this comes The Day of the Lord,777 WHEN on that day; The Great & Terrible Day of The LORD, ALL the stars in Heaven shall be dark, the moon SHALL burn as Bright as the sun and THE SON 7 TIMES Brighter; as satan SHALL be locked away both Physically & Spiritualy for That Day of the LORD;only to be released AGAIN for a VERY short period of time to TEST those at the END of the Lords Day, that did not make it at the beggining of The Lords Day!!!Hope this helps,just another point of veiw.
Love & Peace Forever in CHRIST!!!
Love & Peace Forever in CHRIST!!!
What are the problems? It is generally accepted among scholars that the idea of Satan has changed throughout the ages. In any case, Ha-Satan is never described as a fallen angel. He is merely an angel that tries to point out the faults and shortcomings in humans. I'm not saying that Satan in the New Testament does not exist. I'm merely pointing out that in the Book of Job, the "evil" figure is not the New Testament Devil. I'd suggest reading some of the numerous exegeses that have been done on the Book of Job and the role of Ha-Satan. Also, I'd recommend looking into the Jewish tradition of Ha-Satan.
The New Testament was indeed largely written in Greek while the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek before the birth of our Lord and it is called the Septuagint. Some English Bibles are translated from Greek manuscripts and others are translated from the Latin manuscripts.
The New Testament was indeed largely written in Greek while the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek before the birth of our Lord and it is called the Septuagint. Some English Bibles are translated from Greek manuscripts and others are translated from the Latin manuscripts.
T
I read this idea in a book. It doesnt clearly say in the bible it's like this, but it does make sense. Here is the summarized idea: When Adam was the ruler or prince of this world, he had access to God. The description in the book Job, when Satan enters, it seems like it's a meeting, so it could be said that God would hold meetings where the rulers of all the worlds He had created would come. Before, Adam had the right to enter, but once he lost his right and authority and gave it to Satan, then Satan, as ruler of this world, would have access to those meetings, that's what we see in Job; Satan entering a meeting. And once Jesus took control of this world, Satan no longer has access to entering God's presence since now he has no authority whatsoever.
In conclusion: being the prince of this world gave you access to God, Adam had that access but then gave it to Satan, then Jesus, by dying on the cross took away Satan's authority. So Satan used to have access to heaven but he no longer does.
Like I've said, there is no biblical verse that says this is how it really is, so all the replies are just somewhat educated guesses. This reply also being a guess.
E
The fact that "the idea of Satan" has changed over the years, I think, would be more likely due to mankind changing over the years, or possibly mankind gaining a better understanding.
Maybe Ha-Satan isn't described as a fallen angel, but logically he has to be. You're surely not suggesting one of God's angels is running around pointing out how flawed and easily tempted we are, are you? They protect us and rejoice in an unimaginable way with each soul that is saved. I don't think they're working against us.
I would be very interested in looking into Ha-Satan more deeply, but since the number of exegeses is "numerous", I would like you to point me to some particular ones. And thank you for sharing your knowledge of the languages the Bible was written in and how it was translated to English. Very interesting.
Maybe Ha-Satan isn't described as a fallen angel, but logically he has to be. You're surely not suggesting one of God's angels is running around pointing out how flawed and easily tempted we are, are you? They protect us and rejoice in an unimaginable way with each soul that is saved. I don't think they're working against us.
I would be very interested in looking into Ha-Satan more deeply, but since the number of exegeses is "numerous", I would like you to point me to some particular ones. And thank you for sharing your knowledge of the languages the Bible was written in and how it was translated to English. Very interesting.