Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

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Ariel82

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Without the Spirit, none belong to Christ.[Romans 8:9] Now, ppl who healed in the manner the OT Prophets and the Disciples did, they had the Spirit indwelling them. What we see is a gross application of John 7:39 in full display. I am not accusing you, Sister.
Not sure what you are saying

John 7

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


***what do you think it means for us to have living waters flowing from our hearts?
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Agreed. But because they healed ppl, had special God-given abilities does not make their conversion any different than ours. Yes, they had special gifts. Even today, some christians are more gifted in the ministry than others. Some are better singers than others. But everyone's salvation is the same. It is God who gives many gifts to some, and fewer to others. Those who have lesser gifts are just as saved, though.

I don't see it that way I see that each Gift given by God is for all but each one has to develop the gift and mature in the use of it Timothy had to sit under Paul before HE could run the church here he was sent. Jesus had to instruct the disciples for three years. David had to Shepard, Joseph had to go into slavery, Daniel into captivity Paul into Prison etc... we are all gifted but have not yet arrived in the office of them. This is why for 24 years a young JEWish man study before he could even get married Jesus did not move into HIS place of the cross at 12 years old He waited until it was time.
 
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Ariel82

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Romans 12
For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
 

SovereignGrace

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Dec 28, 2016
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Not sure what you are saying

John 7

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


***what do you think it means for us to have living waters flowing from our hearts?
The Spirit has moved in all believers Sister. Pre- & post-cross. Granted, those believers pre-cross did not have the Spirit in His plentitude as we do today. But none are His w/o His Spirit. That's all believers of all time.
 

SovereignGrace

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Dec 28, 2016
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This is from Piper's sermon...

[h=2]2. New Birth and Indwelling of the Spirit[/h]Second, the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?
Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.
This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith.

Piper nailed it. This is what I was poorly saying.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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I would like to have a biblical Discussion on these two topic. without insults , false narratives , and strawmen created by both side for and against the subject. I would like to cover both what I think the bible and much study i have done over the many years. You do not have to agree with me but, I would like for you all to please provide contextual meaning to your response. If this is not possiable then you are free not to post. I accept all questions anyone will ask but I will not hear rudness or insults .

Baptisim of Holy Spirit :
I would like to study the powerful experience for the super natural growth on the "church" in the apostolic and post-apostolic ages of the "church". Which has been the principal cause of mighty revivals that have swept the world since the turn of the 20th century. I am not suggesting, teaching, or attempting to exalt the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gifts HE gives to the "Church" above the Redemptive Work of Christ. The # 1 Work of the Holy Spirit is exalting Christ (John 3:16).

the greatest promise to the World is " whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life". but the greatest promise to the "Church" is: "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you" (Acts 1:8)

The Baptizer in the Holy Spirit is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is what empowers the "Church".

What the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT:

1. It is not " The Second Definite Work of Grace" I have heard some use this term but I have not seen it in the bible nor have more qualfied teachers than I. If there is second then maybe a 3rd or 4th too? I believe in the continual growth in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18)

2. it is not the Second Blessing again if there is a second why not a 3rd or 4th? I do not believe this to be a biblical expression used in the bible.
3. it is not Sanctification That is long topic and I will just say that right now but "Sanctification" is part of the Chritians daily
life. (LV 27:14)
4. it is not the New Birth The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit is subsequent to, and distinct from , The Lords Regenerative Work.

"The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit" the scriptural name for the Holy Spirit coming into the lives of men & women who are Christians .Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5 The name of this expireance in the Bible as a normitive is " The Baptisim with the Holy Ghost/Spirit".

The apostles were converted under the ministry of Jesus (John 1:35-50; Luke 10:20; John 13:10,11 15:3) they were told to wait (tarry) and were instantly filled with the Spirit about two years later (luke 24:49;Acts 1:13,14; 2:1-4)
The samaritans Acts 8:5-8,12 Acts 8:14-17 records thier expirence
The 12 men at Ephesus who were believers Acts 19:2

Some teach and believe that the Holy Spirit was poured out once for all on the Day of Pentecost, and we not expect nothing more. The prophecy of joel has been fulfilled. But is that what happened?

Peter in quoting Joel 2:29, did not say: "Now is fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".

If he had, there would be nothing more to expect. The prophecy would be fulfilled. But What Peter did say:
"This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" Peter than explained this promise was for all men and women not just those in the upper room.

I will stop here and pick up soon give time for questions and comments
with ya until the last bit.
Pentecost WAS the fulfillment of joel.
the promise of power from on high was for the disciples only.
 
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Ariel82

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with ya until the last bit.
Pentecost WAS the fulfillment of joel.
the promise of power from on high was for the disciples only.
We are disciples too and God has empowered us to a degree. I know when Jesus walked with us He said there is 12 hours of the day for a man to work, do miracles, etc..

I wonder is it still daytime or had it become night?

I think most of us agree that Joel was fulfilled at Pentecost but the question is the prophecy still active and being fulfilled today?
 
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Reading this thread made me think of my first real experience with God.

For many years I went to a christian union in my school, believed in the death and
resurrection of Christ, the forgiveness of my sins, yet it felt very external, ideas in
my head and not my heart. I wondered why though I understood and believed it all
it seemed not part of me in some way.

In my room, it came to me, that I just needed to praise out loud, the Lord
from my heart. When I did this, my heart leapt, I felt alive, blessed,
welcomed in, alive.

I have had many spiritual experiences since, so I want to call these not
any one "baptism" in the Holy Spirit, but rather the Holy Spirit singing with
my spirit to the Lord. It is this that seals my heart, that brings me into
fellowship with my Lord.

Surely I have been baptised in the Spirit at the point I came to faith, as the
Lord stirred my heart to make that step of faith. I felt so many things, this
was not, oh yes, I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, more I know Christ
Amen.

Since this time I have many deeper more profound points of revelation, being
stunned, changed, turned around, so the first one seems minor in comparison.

It makes me wonder how much people are dwelling in Christ daily and how dry
their spiritual experience actually is today. It is our walk now that is our life,
not our history.
 

notuptome

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with ya until the last bit.
Pentecost WAS the fulfillment of joel.
the promise of power from on high was for the disciples only.
So sorry, Pentecost was a partial fulfillment as the signs in the heavens were not present at Pentecost. Peter noted as much in his discourse. Joel does state that the Holy Spirit is for all flesh. Joel further states that visions, dreams and such were for the sons and daughters of Israel and not given for all flesh unlike the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 2, 2016
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How could the OT folks experience the new birth when, (being indwelt by the Holy Spirit), when the Spirit that would indwell people had not yet been given? John 7:37-38 He that believes on me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spoke He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive, for the Spirit was NOT YET GIVEN because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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So sorry, Pentecost was a partial fulfillment as the signs in the heavens were not present at Pentecost. Peter noted as much in his discourse. Joel does state that the Holy Spirit is for all flesh. Joel further states that visions, dreams and such were for the sons and daughters of Israel and not given for all flesh unlike the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

no Joel does not say that you are out of context
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Maybe we should look at Joel prophecy?


Also Cornelius and others in the Bible who weren't Jewish by blood had dreams and messages from God.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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...
the promise of power from on high was for the disciples only.
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.'...Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Peter teaches that the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit are available throughout the WHOLE of the age of Grace, right up until the Second Coming of Christ for ALL believers!
 

inge

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Jun 23, 2012
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Recently in our biblestudy group we studied the gifts of the Spirit and how this is connected to how church should be. Also how we understand God. I think one of the issues with how we study the bible is that we tend to order things the way we see it… or (more extreme) we even put God in a box. For example: Is the baptism of the Spirit different than the promise (Acts 2:33) than the seal (2 Cor 1:22)? Or de filling (Acts 2:4)? Or is it somehow the same And when we get the Holy Spirit, is God than inside of us? Or Jesus? Both? All?

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:9-14

We see God move in the generations in different ways. (And here I start ordering….) Before the law God connects with certain people like Henoch, Noach and for example Abraham. He is on purpose choosing them for a purpose. Still we read how God also intervenes with others but the main line is through those people and through their families. Than from Abraham growing/starting of a nation. We see that the law is given to this nation. The law brings clarity about sins and also shows Gods holiness. It was a written word. Before all this I think not many had written words, but God worked also without the written words, how did He do that? ;)


NT= God gathering people out of the heathens.

What was God purpose for Pentecostal for what happened in the New Testament? God is gathering a nation out of the heathens, that’s the body of Christ.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:14,18

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:8,14

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and
- teach all nations,
- baptizing themin the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
- Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
- and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:18-20


The Spirit inside all followers of Christ.
The difference between what we see before Pentecostal and after Pentecostal is that the Spirit lives inside all followers of Christ. When they surrender to Christ, the surrender to the Spirit. Where the Spirit lives all bad things will be kicked out and the good things of God will come in.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:16

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death Rom 8:3 the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, Rom 8:11


When we than look at the Old Testament what the Holy Spirit does we will surely find that back in what the Holy Spirit does in the New Testament. Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Hebr 13:8) so is God, so is the Spirit. The testing (discernment) is this if it points to Christ, brings people into the Kingdom of Christs. When we want to enjoy the works of the Holy Spirit but we/church/people glorifie(s) our gifts, our calling, our knowing, our feelings, it is not correct.


Jesus triumphed over the darkness and their powers -supernatural.
This work of the Holy Spirit is firmly based on Jesus victory!

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Matt 28:18

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:9-15

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Luk 10:18-20



The Holy Spirit is first building us.

The Spirit in us is God’s law, Gods work in us. The Holy Spirit convicts us from sin (Joh 16:8-11), He points to Christ (Joh 16:14,15), He produces fruit (Gal 5:22-25), and He manifests (1Cor 12:7). (This is a perfect standard to see if the Holy Spirit is working correctly in church.)

First of all is the Spirit given to build ourselves, to grow in our relationship with God.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Joh 16:13,14

Jesus Himself said:
The Holy Spirit of truth will guide you in truth
The Holy Spirit will speak what He hears
The Holy Spirit will show things to come
The Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus

These are manifestations of the Spirit! :)


Apostle John writes to a fellowship (“little children” 2 John 2:1) :
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 2 John 2:20;27


The Holy Spirit building a house, body of Christ.

As the priests were made holy to work in the tabernacle by putting oil on them (Ex 40:13-15) we are (individually) made holy to work as priests for God. We are anointed (what is the baptism of the Spirit) by God to do His work. It is never our power, our knowledge our flesh but God -The Holy Spirit- whom is building His work.
Ye also, as lively stones, arebuilt up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light: 1 Pet 2:5,9

When we grow individually in Christ, in our faith, in our relationship with Him, God expects next to fruit of the Spirit also that we come and work in His fellowship (1 Cor 12) and His vineyard (Matt 20). So growing in Christ means we can feed instead of only being fed, and also discern instead of being “tossed to and fro”.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebr 5:12-14

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ef 4:4-6; 11-16


In this last verse we see how God gives people to build up the church (body of Christ). He gives apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. He makes also everything work as one body through His Spirit (verse 15,16). Do we find this elsewhere in the bible? Yes. This is what is connected with God giving His Spirit as mentioned in 1 Cor 12 verse 12 and verse 28-31
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 1 Cor 14:12


My conclusion would be: growing in Christ means growing in the Spirit.
The Head cannot do differently than to stir and to direct the body and He does so by the Spirit and by His word. Therefore we need to also test the spirit/Spirit to discern whom/Whom is speaking. (1 Joh 4:1) And when a church fully surrenders to Christ we will see revival in this way:
-conviction by the Spirit (John 16:8-11)
-the Spirit will guide in truth. (John 16:13)
-the Spirit will speak what He hears (John16:13)
-the Spirit will show things to come (John 16:13)
-Christ will be the center (John 16:14,15)


Is Joel fulfilled (and done)?

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:16-20

When we read the text in its context we see that still the signs that will appear are not fulfilled. But they will when Jesus will return ("notable day of the Lord"). Until than this verse is still at work. We still see servants and handmaidens that are filled with the Spirit and sons and daughters telling by the Spirit things (John 16:13) and young men and old men will be shown by the Spirit things to come (John 16:13) until we see Jesus coming. :D Maranatha