Against Calvinism: God reacts to mankind. God asks mankind.

[SovereignGrace]

That actually is Calvinism... It's a contradiction that Calvinists ignore. Usually Calvinists just say it's a mystery or it's beyond our understanding. Calvinists have to skip explaining or facing a few things to make sense of Calvinism. Or the "It's a hard scripture to understand" statement is given.

Here's some of what the Western confessions of faith says... which is Calvinism...


Chapter X

Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]

^ People are determined to that which is good..... YET they come MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST freely

That's the sense of Calvinism.

What's the 'Western Confession of Faith' you speak of?

You know so little about our beliefs, you don't even know its the 'Westminster Confession of Faith'. This confession was written in 1644 and the Presbyterians hold to it. The 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 is what reformed/particular Baptists hold to. The main difference in those is the WCoF holds to paedobaptism, whereas the LBCoF holds to credobaptistism.

But read up on your opponents more. Your lack of knowing us and our beliefs show through on every post like it has neon lights.

 

[Calmador]

Who are these blokes? Name some names. You keep saying this, but this is hearsay. Hearsay won't hold up in court, neither will it on here.

I don't keep a list of names. But, God reacting is something that bothers Calvinists from my experience.

I think it's Calvinist slang for... "God is not lead by the actions by humans." If that's the case, then I would agree. I usually get the "God does not react" comment when I tell them that God can foreknow our free-willed actions, such as accepting salvation. Then a number of Calvinists responded the same.. "God does not react to people?" Implying that I'm saying humans lead God and I never say or imply that, but I've yet to meet a Calvinist that understands that. I think all if not most are fixed in thinking a certain pattern.

Hearsay Hearsay...I've heard that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't keep a list of names. But, God reacting is something that bothers Calvinists from my experience.

Well, you must have a limited experience then. Read some of Charles Spurgeon's sermons online. He was a five-point Calvinist who continually implored ppl to call out to God for salvation.

I think it's Calvinist slang for... "God is not lead by the actions by humans." If that's the case, then I would agree. I usually get the "God does not react" comment when I tell them that God can foreknow our free-willed actions, such as accepting salvation. Then a number of Calvinists responded the same.. "God does not react to people?" Implying that I'm saying humans lead God and I never say or imply that, but I've yet to meet a Calvinist that understands that. I think all if not most are fixed in thinking a certain pattern.

First off, free will does not exist, and the sooner you sweep that out the front door, the better. When we were lost, unregenerate, we were slaves to sin.[Matthew 6:24, Romans 6:6 & 6:16, Galatians 4:8-11 just for starters] So, God can't react to that which does not exist.


The lost are not the ones who are seeking God. In fact, properly understood, they are fleeing from Him. God has to come to them and draw[helkuo] them to Himself.

 

[Depleted]

I'm okay with jokes, but I'm trying to do engage in the whole Arminian vs Calvinism debate and when someone says something I listen.

I've heard another Calvinist say in the threads that God causes everything... and the result.

I responded by asking, if that's true, then God caused evil. God would necessarily be the cause of evil. He seemed to have understood the tension in Calvinistic logic after that exchange.

Not true. You didn't respond "if that's true, then", you responded, (if it really was a response, versus just another excuse to scold Calvinists for daring not to be you), by giving a 1000+ word sermon on something that isn't even Calvinism to prove Calvinism is wrong.

So, I'm glad you like jokes, because I tend to wonder if your posts are nothing but jokes.

Rule # 1 in writing -- know your audience. You so do not!

 

[Calmador]

For man to be reconciled to God, He is the One who has to initiate their salvation. That's soteriology 101...not Leighton Flowers website, either.

Adam rebelled and God sought him out to restore fellowship. This only bolsters our stance and saws yours asunder.

And I never said God doesn't initiate...

The whole point of this thread is that God reacts to both fallen and saved.

God is not in every way possible in control of everything. Period. Otherwise, you'd have to acknowledge he was controlling and making evil happen. We are merely puppets to the one and only sinner which in accordance to Calvinism would be God.

I do not believe this, but Calvinistic logic leads to this. God is in control in an indirect way. He manages everything else and His power is so great that things are made certain. Free-will does not mean God does not know how our choices would turn out. He knows perfectly what our free-willed choices will be like. I'm not saying man in sin can do this by himself. Man gets liberated by God first.

If all Calvinists just read the word "world" in the bible honestly, they wouldn't be Calvinists. Whether the world means everyone that existed or everyone from that point on is irrelevant. The point is that it didn't mean part of the world from either context. It didn't say particular individuals. It said world.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And I never said God doesn't initiate...

The whole point of this thread is that God reacts to both fallen and saved.

God is not in every way possible in control of everything. Period. Otherwise, you'd have to acknowledge he was controlling and making evil happen. We are merely puppets to the one and only sinner which in accordance to Calvinism would be God.

I do not believe this, but Calvinistic logic leads to this. God is in control in an indirect way. He manages everything else and His power is so great that things are made certain. Free-will does not mean God does not know how our choices would turn out. He knows perfectly what our free-willed choices will be like. I'm not saying man in sin can do this by himself. Man gets liberated by God first.

If all Calvinists just read the word "world" in the bible honestly, they wouldn't be Calvinists. Whether the world means everyone that existed or everyone from that point on is irrelevant. The point is that it didn't mean part of the world from either context. It didn't say particular individuals. It said world.

God's not in control? Srsly?

The way the devil throttled Job was sad, and God told him 'sic'em' when the devil told him he'd curse God if he(devil) touched him. God told him he could not kill Job, but other than that, all bets were off.

The crucifixion of the Christ was the cruelest thing recorded in history and God was in control.

Jesus allowed Mary and Martha to suffer for four days, and also allowed Lazarus to die, just so that He could raise him from the dead so that ppl could believe He was, indeed, the Christ. I got this from a Dr. James White sermon the other day on SermonAudio.com.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And I never said God doesn't initiate...

The whole point of this thread is that God reacts to both fallen and saved.

God is not in every way possible in control of everything. Period. Otherwise, you'd have to acknowledge he was controlling and making evil happen. We are merely puppets to the one and only sinner which in accordance to Calvinism would be God.

I do not believe this, but Calvinistic logic leads to this. God is in control in an indirect way. He manages everything else and His power is so great that things are made certain. Free-will does not mean God does not know how our choices would turn out. He knows perfectly what our free-willed choices will be like. I'm not saying man in sin can do this by himself. Man gets liberated by God first.

If all Calvinists just read the word "world" in the bible honestly, they wouldn't be Calvinists. Whether the world means everyone that existed or everyone from that point on is irrelevant. The point is that it didn't mean part of the world from either context. It didn't say particular individuals. It said world.

Who's this 'god' in this post of yours? He's not the one in the bible, that's for sure.

 

[Laish]

I'm not trying to make a straw man. I've seen the "reaction" comment dozens of time.

My thread isn't meaningless because it is something Calvinists have said so it's worth tackling down. As you can read above... one of the first posts, a Calvinists is already acknowledging it. This is my experience. No research needed for something that I've experienced many times.

You have just proved my point. First you said "My thread isn't meaningless because it is something Calvinists have said so it's worth tackling down." Then you state "This is my experience. No research needed for something that I've experienced many times." It's a strawman argument to only satisfy desire to feel right. You have no interest in knowing or you would research your topic . Sad to say you are not looking to find out what is true about a subject . Your purpose is only to criticize somthing you don't what to know about.
Blessings
Bill

 

[ForthAngel]

I don't keep a list of names. But, God reacting is something that bothers Calvinists from my experience.

I think it's Calvinist slang for... "God is not lead by the actions by humans." If that's the case, then I would agree. I usually get the "God does not react" comment when I tell them that God can foreknow our free-willed actions, such as accepting salvation. Then a number of Calvinists responded the same.. "God does not react to people?" Implying that I'm saying humans lead God and I never say or imply that, but I've yet to meet a Calvinist that understands that. I think all if not most are fixed in thinking a certain pattern.

Hearsay Hearsay...I've heard that Jesus is the Son of God.

In the salvific sense, God does not react to us. The work of salvation is his and his alone. The reaction/response to what God does in salvation comes from the creature. We are not predestined because God foresaw our choice in that he chose us because we chose him. That makes no sense anyway and makes his choice dependent upon ours (back to that whole sovereignty thing again). That's backwards. We choose him because he chose us because he foreknew us and predestined us. This isn't some passive knowledge God spontaneously learned by gazing in a crystal ball or peering through time. Read Ezekiel 36 to get an idea of who reacts to who and why.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

So God is about to act here. The reasons being for his own name and glory, not for man.

23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

Look at all the "I wills" from God here. Man's will is irrelevant. These people were worshiping idols and profaning the name of God. Do you think they were seeking him out of their great love for him, or did God take it upon himself to love them first? And here is man's reaction/response to what God has done:

31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You have just proved my point. First you said "My thread isn't meaningless because it is something Calvinists have said so it's worth tackling down." Then you state "This is my experience. No research needed for something that I've experienced many times." It's a strawman argument to only satisfy desire to feel right. You have no interest in knowing or you would research your topic . Sad to say you are not looking to find out what is true about a subject . Your purpose is only to criticize somthing you don't what to know about.
Blessings
Bill

The problem stems from his getting his info from the "Western Confession of Faith".

Is that from...

The Best Western?
Western Sizzler?
Western Auto?

 

[Laish]

That actually is Calvinism... It's a contradiction that Calvinists ignore. Usually Calvinists just say it's a mystery or it's beyond our understanding. Calvinists have to skip explaining or facing a few things to make sense of Calvinism. Or the "It's a hard scripture to understand" statement is given.

Here's some of what the Western confessions of faith says... which is Calvinism...


Chapter X

Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]

^ People are determined to that which is good..... YET they come MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST freely

That's the sense of Calvinism.

Ok what gives you can't even name the the Westminster confession of faith correctly? Is it that refusal to to do research about something you don't want to know about but you must criticize it anyway? Also the excerpt you cut and pasted is a footnote.
It is a piece of a larger work . You critiqued the notes on the subject as if it were all that was being said about the subject. That is not a honest way to conduct a dialogue . Or maybe this a research thing again? There it is that word again. Really google can help or some time in a library .
Blessings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the salvific sense, God does not react to us. The work of salvation is his and his alone. The reaction/response to what God does in salvation comes from the creature. We are not predestined because God foresaw our choice in that he chose us because we chose him. That makes no sense anyway and makes his choice dependent upon ours (back to that whole sovereignty thing again). That's backwards. We choose him because he chose us because he foreknew us and predestined us. This isn't some passive knowledge God spontaneously learned by gazing in a crystal ball or peering through time. Read Ezekiel 36 to get an idea of who reacts to who and why.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

So God is about to act here. The reasons being for his own name and glory, not for man.

23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

Look at all the "I wills" from God here. Man's will is irrelevant. These people were worshiping idols and profaning the name of God. Do you think they were seeking him out of their great love for him, or did God take it upon himself to love them first? And here is man's reaction/response to what God has done:

31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok what gives you can't even name the the Westminster confession or faith correctly? Is it that refusal to to do research about something you don't want to know about but you must criticize it anyway? Also the excerpt you cut and pasted is a footnote.
It is a piece of a larger work . You critiqued the notes on the subject as if it were all that was being said about the subject. That is not a honest way to conduct a dialogue . Or maybe this a research thing again? There it is that word again. Really google can help or some time in a library .
Blessings
Bill

In case you missed this...

What's the 'Western Confession of Faith' you speak of?

You know so little about our beliefs, you don't even know its the 'Westminster Confession of Faith'. This confession was written in 1644 and the Presbyterians hold to it. The 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 is what reformed/particular Baptists hold to. The main difference in those is the WCoF holds to paedobaptism, whereas the LBCoF holds to credobaptistism.

But read up on your opponents more. Your lack of knowing us and our beliefs show through on every post like it has neon lights.

I already addressed the 'Western Confession' and he didn't try to acknowledge it.

 

[Laish]

In case you missed this...




I already addressed the 'Western Confession' and he didn't try to acknowledge it.

Yea I saw it brother good job . I just wanted to reinforce it . Then call attention to the fact he was posting a footnote excerpt .
as if that was what the confession represented. It's not a honest way to present things .
Blesdings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yea I saw it brother good job . I just wanted to reinforce it . Then call attention to the fact he was posting a footnote excerpt .
as if that was what the confession represented. It's not a honest way to present things .
Blesdings
Bill

Well, he is apparently ignorant(not stupid but not knowing our beliefs and the confessions we are with) of our beliefs, but keeps posting misinformation anyways. Very dishonest debate tactic.

 

[Laish]

The problem stems from his getting his info from the "Western Confession of Faith".

Is that from...

The Best Western?
Western Sizzler?
Western Auto?

humm interesting. I think it may be The Best Western. If to the Gideons may now have some competition in the placement of religious material in the rooms of hotels .
Blessings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yea I saw it brother good job . I just wanted to reinforce it . Then call attention to the fact he was posting a footnote excerpt .
as if that was what the confession represented. It's not a honest way to present things .
Blesdings
Bill

Blesdings?

Bless Ding Crosby?
Bless Ding Dongs? Yum!!
Bless Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead?

#whichisit?

 

[Laish]

Blesdings?

Bless Ding Crosby?
Bless Ding Dongs? Yum!!
Bless Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead?

#whichisit?

Oh brother I am really laughing so hard right now. My kids think I am crazy. I am truly blessed to have friends with a sense of humor in my life. Not sure what happened though. Fat fingers I guess .
Blessings
Bill
yes I had to double check this time .

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh brother I am really laughing so hard right now. My kids think I am crazy. I am truly blessed to have friends with a sense of humor in my life. Not sure what happened though. Fat fingers I guess .
Blessings
Bill
yes I had to double check this time .

Take that back. Us Calvinists are strict, rigid, heartless, w/o a sense of humor, no joy in our lives.

Does this man look like he had joy in his life? I trow not...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Take that back. Us Calvinists are strict, rigid, heartless, w/o a sense of humor, no joy in our lives.

Does this man look like he had joy in his life? I trow not...

Brother Bill,

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts Calmador(or however you spell his username) doesn't know who this man is.