Another Look at Women in Ministry by Sam O Donnell

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MaggieMye

Guest
#1
Abstract: The issue of women in ministry has been a topic of intense debate for many years. While the Apostle Paul gives clear instruction to Timothy on this issue, the historical context indicates Paul’s instructions to be specific for the particular church in Ephesus.
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When we look deeply at this passage of scripture we see the heart of the Apostle Paul in his tenderly giving instruction to Timothy. Paul referred to Timothy as a son. We will look at Paul’s first letter to Timothy, chapter 2 verses nine through fifteen.
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
The Greek word here for adorn is Kosmeo1 it is where we get our word cosmetic. The context is translated “adorn themselves with modest clothes”. Ephesus was a wealthy city. Women would frequently braid expensive jewels into their hair as a sign of their wealth and status. Paul was teaching against this practice that a woman’s beauty should come from a more valuable source, to wit her character and love for God. The word used for decency is Aidos2 and is used only in the New Testament and is akin to being reserved in dress and manner.
The text translates into the word discreetly meaning soundness of mind self-control or sobriety. Paul is giving clear instructions as to the manner of dress for the women and their conduct and deportment. Paul mentions braided hair and costly adornments. Paul is not against jewelry or rich clothing per se. He is advocating against these articles becoming a cheap substitute for the gentle, quiet spirit that comes from having a right relationship with God.3Paul’s injunction here is not to deride women, but rather to give a clear distinction between the conduct of a Godly woman and one that was not in the faith.
Paul’s intent here is for the woman’s beauty to come from within her and not due to expensive articles that could be a distraction. The apostle goes on in verse ten to illustrate actions and behaviors that will be productive in the kingdom of God. Paul’s desire in this text is that women occupy themselves in wholesome enterprises that honor God. This is consistent with his teaching for men also.
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. Paul states plainly that the woman is to quietly receive instruction. The Greek word is hesuchia and describes this as a noun and is in the feminine tense. It is descriptive of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and who does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others.

Paul is instructing the women not to be busy bodies or meddle in the affairs of others. Paul uses a word that is anathema in our modern culture. The English translation is “submission” and the Green is hupotage. It means the act of subjecting, obedience, subjection.4 This type of submission requires one to “rank under”5 the authority of another. Paul is advocating for proper order within the church. This type of submission is recognizing God’s order to churches and those that make the effort to submit also find God’s blessing on their obedience.

Paul is clear that he does not allow women to teach or hold a position of authority over a man. The Greek here is very clear. The word didasko is used in this context. The English rendering would be to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, or deliver didactic discourses. Paul is referring to rabbinic teaching here in this text. Some commentators have suggested that the submission here referrers to submission to established authority. This rendering fits with the context well. 6

This passage also parallels Paul’s teaching in the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians. The teaching of the Greeks on women is positions of leadership were not uniform. Plato allowed essential equality with men while Aristotle believed women’s activities should be greatly limited.7 Paul’s injunction must be understood not to advocate surrender of a woman’s mind, conscience or private judgment. Rather, it was direction as to how she should state her opinions and arrange herself under proper leadership. He continues to unpack his thinking in verse 12. The teaching here is that the women should learn in quietness. Paul despised confusion in the churches he worked with. This is also repeated in Paul’s first letter to the church in Corinth. The word silent here is rendered quietness. Paul again is advocating for order within public worship activities.

13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Paul states plainly the woman was deceived by the serpent. It is his opinion that they should therefore, not be teachers of men for this and many reasons.

15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Paul’s final instruction regarding women is that they will be saved through childbirth. The contextual clues point to her being saved from becoming prey to the social evils of her time and her good life would be a testimony to those outside the church.

The teaching of the Apostle Paul is very clear in this passage and repeated in 1 Corinthians. Paul does not permit women to hold a position of authority over a man and definitely not to teach a man. On this the text is very clear. The apostle desires all things to be done in a proper order. The apostle is also making the distinction here that women are not to usurp authority in the church. The role of women in the church is a hotly debated topic and is beyond the scope of this short work. The text makes clears Paul’s preferences. Numerous times he uses the personal pronoun “I”. At these times he is expressing his own beliefs and opinions.

The historical context of this passage is telling. Paul was dealing with heresies within this church. These were undermining the traditional roles within the relationships of the people to which he was writing. He is not intending to establish universal doctrine prohibiting women form public ministry; even though he specifically teaches against it. This is his preference. Paul’s background as a rabbi would have led him to this conclusion based on his study of tradition.8

It is important to remember; too that Paul wrote that he would not do something that would cause another person to stumble. This teaching applies in this context as well. It was important in this instance to prohibit the actions of a few women that had fallen prey to heresy and not give the false doctrine opportunity to spread.

Paul’s prohibitions here then are not universal apostolic decrees, but rather specific instructions for the situation faced by this particular church.9 Paul imposes these limits to keep the behavior of women from undermining the effectiveness of the church in the larger community.

So we can see that the Apostle Paul’s’ instructions to Timothy are not designed to prohibit ministry of women. His instructions are meant to frame the ministry of women in its proper context. Ministry is much more about the condition of the minster’s heart than anything else. With the historical context of Timothy’s church we see numerous excesses that Paul had to address. Paul’s desire was for the ministry of Timothy to his people to thrive and maintain a good rapport with each other and the larger culture of Ephesus. There is much we can learn from Paul’s instructions and some things that belong within the confines of history. As we look to scripture may it be the source of things done in proper order and with right motives. It is clear from the text that this was not the case and was a reason for Paul’s addressing Timothy in his letter.

We are left with a difficult question to answer. “Is it right for women to hold positions of leadership and authority over a man?” The question must be asked of a woman what is the condition of her heart? Is she fit for ministry? If so what ministry?

The ministry is not something to be entered into lightly. One who enters ministry answers a high calling. The literary and historical contexts intimate that a woman is not barred from ministry on the basis of her gender alone. However, if the presence of a woman in ministry causes discord or the woman usurps already established authority she is then outside of the instructions of scripture.
 
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AnandaHya

Guest
#2
“Is it right for women to hold positions of leadership and authority over a man?”
if the man is fully mature in Christ then no. there should be no need for her to be placed in a position of leadership or authority over him because he should report directly to Jesus and be a leader within the church. if the person is male but still spiritually immature then a woman who is spiritual mature can mentor but it is better if older men mentor younger men and older women mentor younger women. It makes more sense because men and women do not go through the same things physically and do not have the same roles to play in life, in the church and in the world. its not about equality in respect but the different task God has given. Men can't bear children. Women should submit to the authority of a man (if that man is truly a child of God, he will love and protect her and cherish her like his own body) In addition you can give birth to physical and/or spiritual children and that is the task God has asked women to focus upon.

Paul spoke to Timothy as his spiritual father in the faith and mentored him until he was mature in Christ.

The question must be asked of a woman what is the condition of her heart? Is she fit for ministry? If so what ministry?
hopefully that is asked of everyone regardless of gender.
 
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tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#3
There's nothing new or nothing that can be said to be "another" look at women in ministry in this article. It is the same old relativist-feminist agenda that never minds the law, systematic scriptural context, the historical testimony about the issue of ORDINATION, the fathers and thus the patristic testimony etc. The question is not "difficult" at all, just unbiblical.
 
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Ciscokid

Guest
#4
quote " if the person is male but still spiritually immature then a woman who is spiritual mature can mentor"
Whoa!!!! This absolutely unscriptural--there is no place in scripture where women can " mentor" a man.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,312
1,039
113
#5
What about Deborah in the book of Judges. She was in a position of authority. Funny how Paul can write about the role of husband and wife but has never been married. Look in the book of Genesis where it says the wife is be a help mate to the man,, not a servant. Many of Paul's writings were Paul's opinions. Paul is not my God.
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
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#6
Not funny at all, God gave Paul the insight to teach what he did. Jesus was never married, and Jesus knows ALL about the joining of two people! God is not limeted by experience, and neither is His apostles. They had Authority over ALL matters.

I do not know why people think women can teach Paul gives us a clear understanding that if a person is spiritual or a prophet, this person will know it is a COMMAND from God that women may not speak in church. It requires speach to prophecy, so they will not even prophecy in church. But is one wants to be ignorant i will let him be ignorant.

Read tis and ask yourself, is it from God or not. If it is nt, i will let you be ignorant....
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 
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Ariel82

Guest
#7
Luke 2


36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years,[i] who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord,[j] and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#8
God shows us His truth concerning prophetess in the temple.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#9
Luke 2


36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years,[i] who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord,[j] and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
God shows us His truth concerning prophetess in the temple.
Not so fast.

Let scripture interpret scripture. All can prophesy (Acts 2:18, 21:9, 1Cor.14:31). That does not mean that all who do so are appointed prophets (1Cor.12:28-29).

Prophetesses, like Anna, were women who consecrated themselves to a devout life, but they were not ordained.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#10
What about Deborah in the book of Judges. She was in a position of authority. Funny how Paul can write about the role of husband and wife but has never been married. Look in the book of Genesis where it says the wife is be a help mate to the man,, not a servant. Many of Paul's writings were Paul's opinions. Paul is not my God.

What God appointed Deborah to do has absolulely nothing to do with what he has forbidden women to do in the church. You are looking for loophols in sctipture that will allow you rationalize away the prohibition set forth in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. This is God's prohibition. We did not write the book and we did not make the rules.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,312
1,039
113
#11
What God appointed Deborah to do has absolulely nothing to do with what he has forbidden women to do in the church. You are looking for loophols in sctipture that will allow you rationalize away the prohibition set forth in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. This is God's prohibition. We did not write the book and we did not make the rules.
Am I looking for loop holes aor are you pulling scriptures out of their context? In 1st Corinthians, Paul is specificaly adressing the church of Corinth in response to a letter they had written him. In first Timothy, Paul says I Don not permit a woman to speak in church, not God but I...I say again, Paul is not my God.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#12
Am I looking for loop holes aor are you pulling scriptures out of their context? In 1st Corinthians, Paul is specificaly adressing the church of Corinth in response to a letter they had written him. In first Timothy, Paul says I Don not permit a woman to speak in church, not God but I...I say again, Paul is not my God.

I am not pulling anything anything out of context and you know it. You, on the other hand, are blatently defying the context because you do not like what it says. You know good and well that Paul says the these things he is giving are the "commandments of the LORD." You also know that these commandments are equidistand to both time and culture. They are for ALL the churches. You are not defying me and you are not defying Paul. You are defying the commandment of God.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#13
What about Deborah in the book of Judges. She was in a position of authority. Funny how Paul can write about the role of husband and wife but has never been married. Look in the book of Genesis where it says the wife is be a help mate to the man,, not a servant. Many of Paul's writings were Paul's opinions. Paul is not my God.
quit being a parrot and read the story of Deberah
 
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Abiding

Guest
#14
Am I looking for loop holes aor are you pulling scriptures out of their context? In 1st Corinthians, Paul is specificaly adressing the church of Corinth in response to a letter they had written him. In first Timothy, Paul says I Don not permit a woman to speak in church, not God but I...I say again, Paul is not my God.
So then i rip out all scripture is given by inspiration of God?
Got any more verses that need excluded?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#15
a COMMAND from God that women may not speak in church. It requires speach to prophecy, so they will not even prophecy in church
u figure it out ...